To wonder why on earth you would not vaccinate your DCs?

[olimpia]

I hear from another thread that some people choose not to vaccinate their DCs at all and I'm genuinely interested to hear why because I can't think of a single reason not to. I can perhaps understand opting out of the MMR if someone believes the bad press (not that I do) but all the other vaccinations? Why, oh why?
(not a troll! Just relatively new to MN)

Why would I put any argument to a mother who had lost her child to whooping cough? Would you say to her 'oh, it couldn't be my kidsor me because we've all been vaccinated?' what point are you trying to make?

The point I am making is that I don't think she would be very impressed by your argument that there is no point in this vaccination because apparently it wears off. She had no choice about vaccination: her baby was too young for it. The more people are vaccinated, the higher the herd immunity (even if it does wear off) and so very young children like hers have a degree of protection they should expect in an advanced and concerned society. Don't you think?

Gnushoes

Bumbley thinks we should accepts deaths from whooping cough as a fact of life just as our grandparents did

I'll like to read about it Elaine. There are epidemics of the disease in the US at the moment due to waning immunity so even if you've been vaccinated previously they are obviously spreading it to some extent.

If that's the case Elaine then the logical end point of her argument is that she'd be happy to explain it to the bereaved mother.

Elaine, I can speak for myself thank you.

Gnushoes, what percentage of the population do you think is currently immune given that it is now estimated that it only protects for a few years (4 on average iirc and some studies show as little as a year)? Regardless of how many babies you vaccinate, you are still going to have a huge percentage of the population who are not immune so there is no 'herd' to protect them.

Great, now people are making assumptions based on other people's comments about what I think

I actually think it is more likely that someone who thinks thy are immune to whooping cough would pass it on because someone who hasn't been vaccinated would at least consider that they may have it and wouldn't go around visiting newborns.

Elaine, was it you that said whooping cough wasn't endemic in the US?

My uncle had whooping cough recently. He went to the gp (having had it before, he knew what it was) and was told 'oh no, you were vaccinated, and you've had it before - there's no way it could be whooping cough'

needless to say, it was whooping cough. lucky he stayed away from the family members currently pregnant/with young babies, huh?

but if he had listened to the doctor, he wouldn't have done so necessarily.

Bumbley makes a good point - the immunity from both vaccine and whooping cough caught wild wanes. many, many people catch it more than once (although the distinctive 'whoop' is not present in older children/adults). I had it myself at university (similar experience to my uncle, tbh - popped along to the doctor's to be told I was wrong ). there is also the mutated strain issue - the vaccine does not protect against the most virulent form circulating at the moment.

I have lost count of the number of families I know whose vaccinated children have had 'measles-like' viruses, or 'mumps-like' viruses. identical to the 'real' thing, except in vaccinated children, so couldn't possibly be, could it? doctor's don't appear to check/swab anymore, which is a bit odd, as you would htink they would want accurate info.

Sorry Bumbley. I was just paraphrasing what you'd already said, I thought you'd stand by it.

The vast majority of children are effectively immune to whooping cough following vaccination for at least 5 years with decreasing immunity from then on. Since most children have a booster at about 4 prior to beginning school, it'd make sense to have another booster prior to entry to secondary school. I know I'll make sure my kids are vaccinated.

Adults don't mix in the same way as children and young adults at university. If you have a newborn or you're in contact with young children, it's probably a good idea to get a booster but for the most part adults don't spread diseases as much as children so you can still get herd immunity with lower levels of actual immunity.

It's always the way in these threads bumbley. They're pretty pointless.

A lot of whooping cough is spread by adults btw.

Ds2 had a big whooping county exposure when he was about 8 weeks old - (we seem to do childhood illnesses in this family). He didn't catch it. He was then exposed again at 2 and a bit and did get it - interestingly along with a load of vaccinated kids in his nursery (and no he wasn't the first to go down with it). none of them were hugely ill tbh - although in ds2's case it did go in for a very long time indeed. Probably took about 6 months to clear. I treated with glasses of water (during the nightime spasms - sometimes had to sit up with him for one or two hours). There seemed to be a lot of whooping cough around that year (2004) although interestingly there were some articles around at the time (in the scientific press) saying it was a new strain and not protect against by vaccination. Which would explain why so many of his nursery were whooping away.

Oh cross posted with dino :)

Bumbley you still haven't addressed the point I made.

Yes, the immunity may wear off. But that still doesn't mean we shouldn't vaccinate and give a degree of protection.

Yes, it was you Elaine

"Obviously there herd immunity, even for whooping cough, or it would be endemic, it's not"

You may find this useful.

"Pertussis is endemic worldwide, even in areas with high vaccination rates. "

Which point gnu? I think I have.

Why is the fact a vaccine don't work against all strains, or only work for x period of time a reason not to vaccinate? I mean WHY? Can someone explain?

If you had a horrid cough and decided to visit a newborn, whether or not it was whooping cough, you'd merit a bit of corporal punishment. So, no, I don't believe that vaccinated people are more likely to pass on whooping cough than the unvaccinated

Bumbley here is my question. Again.

Bumbly would you care to put your argument about the uselessness of whooping cough vaccine to the mother of the month-old baby who died of it, most likely from catching it from a child who deliberately wasn't vaccinated because their parent had decided not to bother because, well, it would just wear off anyway?

Bumble - please read you own links

Disease rates are highest among young children in countries where vaccination coverage is low, which is primarily in the developing world. In developed countries, the incidence of pertussis is highest among unvaccinated infants and increases again among adolescents.

Here's a very simple summary of the problem with whooping cough mutation www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/whooping-cough-strain-now-immune-to-vaccine/story-e6freuy9-1225828959714 I do think it would be wise to consider the selection pressure that vaccination introduces before mass vaccination is introduced. Much as it would have been wise to consider the effect of misuse of antibiotics before the development of resistant strains.

Incidentally googling mutated measles brings up some interesting studies in the scientific press as well.

It's not always a horrid cough though LeBFG, especially in older children and adults. Not that you should visit them with any cough but some people do, unfortunately.

Yes, I answered that further up the thread Gnu.

LeBFG, I was posting that for the benefit of Elaine who said yesterday that pertussis was not endemic due to herd immunity. Also not convinced by incidence being significantly higher in the unvaccinated given the trend to not diagnose it in the vaccinated. (See Dinosaur's post above.) That would skew the figures somewhat.

You've failed to answer my question bumble and if the source you're using is doubtful, don't use it.

The same thing happened with TB Saintly. The vaccine no longer offers protection against pulmonary TB due to mutations.

yes, saintly, the mutated measles issue is very interesting.

It makes it all the more odd that gps won't swab for it unless pushed particularly hard - you would think they would want to know what is going on

I can see why they are keen to protect the reputation of the mmr, but if there is a question of a new strain (and there is a question of it) then at the very least you would think the DoH/nhs/hpa would be interested in finding out a few facts...