To wonder why on earth you would not vaccinate your DCs?

[olimpia]

I hear from another thread that some people choose not to vaccinate their DCs at all and I'm genuinely interested to hear why because I can't think of a single reason not to. I can perhaps understand opting out of the MMR if someone believes the bad press (not that I do) but all the other vaccinations? Why, oh why?
(not a troll! Just relatively new to MN)

My grandmother chose not to vaccinate. I didn't actually know that until a few years after I'd decided not to vaccinate ds2 and ds3. I was vaccinated.

I'm not sure this idea that people welcomed vaccinations with open arms is quite accurate. I know my 86 or 87 year old neighbour wasn't vaccinated as her mother didn't believe in them (and she chose not to get herself vaccinated as an adult). An anti-vaccination society was formed as early as 1798 (in the US). And in the UK making vaccination compulsory in 1873 led to riots. An 1898 Act allowed parents to refuse vaccination if they felt it wasn't safe. (All from wiki - hopefully it's reasonably accurate although I haven't checked).

I know from reading that people in developing countries don't always welcome vaccination either. Can't find the links now, but previously have had a little collection from local papers quoting recipients outraged at adverse reactions.

Elaine, you're being silky.

Gnu, the vaccine only provides short term protection (if any). Once your immunity from it wanes you are just as likely to infect someone as someone who was never vaccinated.

Sorry for delayed posts btw - multitasking! :)

Bumble - there are also parents who have vaccinated and still spread disease because they don't realise that what they have is measles/whooping cough/mumps etc because 'it couldn't possibly be, he/she has been vaccinated!' . When was the last time you had your whooping cough immunity tested btw?

I've heard this 'critique' a few times I'm getting bored of it. So WHAT if immunity wanes? Does this mean it's not effective initially? Perhaps we need more boosters? Who are the mains spreaders and victims in this - the unvaccinated of course!

I'm posting this Nature link again - it really is good - particularly the first paragraph about a child who was given polio from a vaccine. It also goes on to say that the whooping vaccine was made safer, but as a consequence, less effective. Who says it's all about making money?

No you're quite right saintly. There have been issues around vaccinations in developing countries - often due to misinformation (such as in Nigeria a rumour spread that antifertility drugs were added to the vaccines) and also similar suspicions about the behaviour of big pharma (in Nigeria due to an antiobiotic or some other non vaccine medicine not being withdrawn despite leading to deaths). I see such parallels to the MMR debacle in the UK. Unfortunately the consequences in Nigeria were more dire.

I'm not being silly (or even silky ). I was just quoting what YOU said Bumbley! If it doesn't bother you to live in a vaccine free world, just like your grandparents, then the natural conclusion is that it wouldn't bother you to expose yourself and yoru children to smallpox without the protection of vaccine. You do see now how ridiculous your statement is?

LeBFG, you were the one who asked me how I would feel about my children playing with children who weren't vaccinated (presumably suggesting some sort of 'oh, you rely on herd immunity' idea). I'm not sure why you've decided to jump a bit further to say that 'I'd be fine' wrt smallpox and that I'm anti-vac but hey ho!

LeBFG, it's not a case of 'so what'. People are here criticising those who chose not to vaccinate and saying that they are putting others at risk even though they have no idea if they or their children are immune. Do you think the fact that you vaccinated absolves you of all responsibility if you do infect someone?

I find it strange that anyone would think that our parents and grandparents weren't bothered by living in a world were children died of smallpox, polio, measles etc. Talking to my mum who had a range of these diseases in childhood, they were all dreaded by parents. It was as awful for the parents to lose a child to these diseases then as it is now. They would have welcomed any chance to not have such fears hanging over them.

By the way there is still no treatment for smallpox, just the vaccine. And it was the WHOs concerted mass vaccination campaign that eradicated the disease, isolation of patients was routine before the vaccination campaign had had the impact required (WHO website).

Bumbley, that's not true about immunity. Immunity declines slowly - both vaccine acquired and natually acquired - particularly if the disease is not circulating and you don't get natural boosters from your immune system producing the antibodies, it slowly 'forgets', albeit usually at a faster pace in vaccine acquired immunity. However, even if you're not fully immune, your immune system usually kicks in quicker as it still has the memory of the virus and maybe the antibodies don't kick in as fast as with a fully immune person but still faster than someone who was never vaccinated. That's why people who were vaccinated but get the disease usually get a milder dose. The antibodies weren't in action fast enough to prevent infection but the viral load is lower as they get into action quicker than in a person who was never immunized. It's also why you're less infectious - yoru viral load is lower.

Bumble - I wanted to know your real opinion on vaccines as you give all and every conceivable argument as to why they are bad. Most of the other sceptics admit to some level of vaccination, but you have never let on.

As you well know, in a vaccine-free world, there is no such thing as herd immunity.

"And a polio free world, bleugh, who cares? If our grandparents had to deal with it, good enough for me!"

This was what I thought was a bit silly. Although I still stand by the fact that my parents and grandparents weren't running around terrified of these diseases, they just got on with life. Which I imagine I would too. Would I want to expose my children to them (which implies deliberately) no, I probably wouldn't but I don't think I would be risking a smallpox vaccine (which had a really high incidence of side effects -permanent sequelae and death) for them either. Thats the reason why they opted for containment and selectively vaccinating those who had been exposed.

Elaine, what are you saying isn't true exactly? The point I made to gnu? Why do you think there are so many whooping cough cases in older children and adults?

LeBFG, you do know that the concept of herd immunity was around before vaccines don't you?

Of course they got on with life! What other option was there?! My grandmother got on with life raising her other 8 children when her eldest daughter died of a vaccine preventable disease in 1917.

I'd imagine if there were a smallpox epidemic, they may have been pretty terrified and kept their kids indoors (Have you read 'The Plague' by Albert Camus).

Selective vaccination for smallpox began once cases became sporadic. It wouldn't have worked while it was endemic. I'd assume you probably would change your mind about smallpox vaccines if you really were faced with dealing with a smallpox outbreak. Luckily the vaccination of previous generations has saved you from such a dilemma. We owe them a vote of gratitude. Hopefully we can do the same with polio so future generations will be in the same privileged position.

This statment ' Once your immunity from it wanes you are just as likely to infect someone as someone who was never vaccinated.' is NOT TRUE bumbely. you are not just as likely you are still LESS LIKELY. Please get yoru facts straight.

Elaine, if your immunity wanes and you catch whooping cough you are just as likely to infect someone as someone who was unvaccinated and caught whooping cough.

Would I want to expose my children to them (which implies deliberately) no, I probably wouldn't but I don't think I would be risking a smallpox vaccine (which had a really high incidence of side effects -permanent sequelae and death)

Did it? I never heard of it. The worst anyone I knew got was a nasty red sore on the site of the vaccination.

No you are not Bumbley. If you have been vaccinated, even if you are not fully immune, you will have a lower viral load than someone who has not been vaccinated. You are therefore less infectious than someone who has not been vaccinated.

Elaine, smallpox vaccination was most definitely available when your grandmother had her family, so she wouldn't have had to keep her children indoors for that one.

We talk about herd immunity in relation to vaccination hence I didn't understand why you made the comment: how I would feel about my children playing with children who weren't vaccinated (presumably suggesting some sort of 'oh, you rely on herd immunity' idea).

People talk about relying on herd immunity when they choose not to vaccinate in a world of vaccinated people, thus they profit as they have no disease risk and no vaccine risk. Like my neighbours incidently....only it bit them in the ass when the two children were admitted to hosptial following a bad attack of measles.

bumbly - smallpox in Western Europe, USA, Japan and many other areas was eradicated by a mass vaccination campaign. Isolated outbreaks in the 1970s were due to small populations of unvaccinated people (one was a religious group in Nigeria) then the WHO came in isolated and vaccinated those who had been in contact with smallpox. BUT it was mass vaccination (100% was recommended by WHO in 1964) that eradicated the disease.

Smallpox is fatal in almost 50% of cases, if not fatal it left you blind and if not blind then horribly disfigured.

Yes before vaccines people just got on with their lifes, but if they had been offered the possibility of not having a fatal disease and losing their children I'm sure most would have opted for it. We forget how lucky we are in this world.

Bumbly would you care to put your argument about the uselessness of whooping cough vaccine to the mother of the month-old baby who died of it, most likely from catching it from a child who deliberately wasn't vaccinated because their parent had decided not to bother because, well, it would just wear off anyway? I certainly wouldn't. I wouldn't even be able to look her in the eye if I hadn't vaccinated my own children.

Elaine, do you have a link to where you are getting that info from?

Yes LeBFG, I thought you were making a point suggesting that I am only ok with not vaccinating against certain diseases because I am benefitting from herd immunity so would I be happy if there was none.

Iirc fatality from smallpox was around 30% (WHO) well, for one form of it. The other form was fatal in 1% of cases.

Gnushoes, that baby could also have been infected by an older child or adult whose immunity had waned.

That wasn't the point I made bumbley. The baby could indeed have been infected that way -- but in this area many people choose not to vaccinate. Would you put your argument to the mother, was the question I asked. And not the question you answered.

Sorry, no link Bumbley, it was from my course notes from my course on vaccines and public health at uni. But it's a well established biological fact taht the lower your viral load, the less infectious you are. Why would you think it's not true?