Young teens, strings & pubic depilation

[tsunami]

My eldest daughter is just 14 and I've found a lacy string in her room and now a big wad of pubic hair in her shower: suspect we're talking a close shave, and I dread to think how much she's taken off. I don't think there's a (serious) boy in the picture or if this is just peer-pressurised body-angst, but - while I'm no saint and have been around the block myself in my time - I really hate this current pole-dancer/porn shaved pussy trend. Call me a square (and maybe a hypocrite as I do wax up to my bikini line - sorry; TMI but I'm hoping we're all girls together in here - or can at least tolerate girl talk) I think total pubic baldness is unreconstructed pandering to male fantasy... IMO even Brazilians and landing strips are inappropriate for young teens. Still trying to cope with the string (yes, this is my first daughter, and she's growing up, so maybe I have to get used to it. We've had the high heels conversation, the provocative dressing and the make-up one...is this just the next step?)

I find it gutting that such young girls fall for this kind of stuff. OK - once you're older then it's your business, but kids need boundaries and should we and can we draw the line? Given the images they can get access to online - which they can and do, no matter what precautions you try to put in place at home - I'm not surprised they feel under pressure. Yes, I have looked - half the porn girls are bald; most have breast implants. Call me old fashioned, but - yeeuch.

I would've died if my mum had ever discussed my depilation issues with me. I can just see it: 'Darling...about your pubes...' 'Yeah, Mum, whatever: bog off.' You can't! Maybe I just tell her I don't think she should leave big clods of pubic hair in the plughole from a hygiene and self-respect POV.

What do I do? Do I do nothing, and leave it? It's her body...AIBU even to think of getting involved?

Lindsay Because I think that we are socially pressured into everything and more importantly I quite enjoy it.

In regards to the social pressure about pubic hair, I don't think I experienced that it was through my own personal disgust I behaved as I did and continue to. With my dd, its her choice. Social pressure is a reality, if she wants to shave it off rather than feel uncomfortable then I'm not going to make her suffer to challenge social pressure, especially not when its something I partake in.

In regards to everything else, I think we are socially pressurised into everything. Female body image is not a priority for me. I prioritise the consumption of meat, animal products, sugar, high fructose corn syrup etc- I live a mainly vegan lifestyle/healthy lifestyle and encourage my dcs to, I object to the idea of motherhood being the norm and therefore I do it my way and have posted openly about this on mn. I object to cruelty to animals and reflect this through my product and lifestyle choices. I object to the way our society institutionalises racism, particularly as my dh is black and I'm jewish so I protest and I take action to challenge this.

Women, porn, body image is not a priority to me. I enjoy make-up, I have a fashion degree and work in the fashion industry, I don't want to be fat and have bad teeth and skin and hair because its unhealthy so the social pressures fit with my lifestyle and therefore aren't an issue for me.

So you care about animals and are against racism. But sexism, that's fine, even though it affects more people in horrible ways. Nice.

Oh yeah cos feminism = being ill and unhealthy

But - if you agree that these things are governed by social mores - it's not 'choice', is it, in any meaningful sense that could apply to a 14 year old?

And if it's all about 'choice', why do any of us bother to stop them taking drugs, or going out with 25 year olds, etc etc.

'Choice', at 14, should be analysed and explained by you - because she hasn't yet got the tools. And possibly will never gain them, if you don't step up to the plate.

'the social pressures fit with my lifestyle and therefore aren't an issue for me'

But for your daughter? And how will she be able to resist social pressures which don't happen to coincide with healthy-eating messages, unless you point them out for what they are, and ensure that - as far as possible - it really is her fully informed choice. Because any other kind of choice isn't worth the Closer-magazine paper it's written on.

Also, I don't think having bad teeth and skin and hair is actually unhealthy. It's unattractive, and doesn't lead to cosmetics sales. Therefore the 'it's unhealthy and is about self-respect' message is one that women's mags have to put out, because they rely - we all know this, but some of us can't bear to admit it - entirely on advertising to stay afloat. They will literally say whatever their core advertisers want them to, and everything in Grazia that isn't Lucy Mangan is grist to that mill.

I don't think there is anything wrong in saying I care more about racism and animal cruelty, those are my causes. I never feel I've experienced sexism directly and the parts I'm being told I experience are things I actually enjoy and take pleasure in.

Why am i going to get het up about treatments and make up and dressing 'sexily' when thats something I have great fun doing? I don't have fun eating an animal corpse and i believe eating animals is fundamentally unhealthy, I don't have fun being unhealthy. I don't have fun hearing my DH insulted or my own race discriminated against. Why am i going to take issue with something I enjoy?

Lindsay I don't exactly understand your post so I'm going to try and answer what I think you're saying.

I said there is social pressure, but not that we are forced. I think at 14 you can make decisions and choices. My dd chooses not to say be involved in criminality or she chooses to study hard even though in her school this goes against the norm. I strongly encourage my children to self-regulate. They choose their own bedtimes, they choose what they eat, the only rules I can think of in our house are to do with treating each other respectfully, listening, tidying up after yourself (which links with respect).

I did say that I didn't make her do this, she came and asked about it, explained why and I said if thats what you want to do then fine. As I don't believe it puts her in mortal danger I don't have any objections to it.

Apols, Lucy Mangan is Stylist, Gaby Hinsliff is Grazia. Love them both as I do, I'm a bit disappointed that they've both gone down the 'I'll be a beard for corporate capitalism which can only survive if it makes enough women feel shit' road.

I'm sorry you couldn't understand my point.

It was that you should perhaps have interrogated why she wanted to do what she wanted to do.

Fairly straightforward really.

Its nothing to do with magazines, although I do know about advertisers and their influence as I'm heavily involved in that industry.

Having bad teeth is unhealthy, if your teeth rot and fall out you can get gum disease, be unable to talk eat etc tooth care is important to overall health. Having bad skin and hair are typical reflections of a poor diet, malnutrition and lack of exercise and fresh air. Those things are unhealthy what have magazines got to do with it?

I (and not in an insulting way) cannot understand your point at all.

Well I did interrogate her, as how else would I know that she felt she wanted to do this because of discussions hse had with her friends and peers at school and that it is more specifically to do with her swimming.

I've never said that I just sent her off to a wax, I explained from the beginning I knew why she wanted to do it.

I also find the idea, which Ruby articulates, of having 'my causes', completely perplexing. I literally can't imagine segmenting the world like this - understanding how the dominant way of thinking around one issue gets passed on, and challenging it - yet refusing to apply that knowledge to the bigger picture.

I hate libertarianism. It's so selfish.

I've said that feminism fights against Rape and unequal pay do you not take issue with that?
I'm white but I still care about racism, you don't have to experience something to have a sense of morality about it.
I feel the pressure to conform and sometimes find make up fun. You can still think and realise that this pressure is caused by patriarchy even if you succumb to it. I want the expectation and pressure to go not the freedom, it would bring much more freedom.

LOL at being unable to talk for the yellowness of my teeth - which I think we both know (personal experience, as you have) is what fashion mags call 'dental health'

If only fashion mags were concerned that our having dull hair might mean that we weren't eating well. I would totally love a Jewish aunt fashion mag. I might start one.

But you know as well as I do that all they care about is the number of their readers who buy Daniel Galvin Hi-Gloss Define and Shine Shampoo for Real Brunettes.

And you mistake the meaning of 'interrogate' in the context I used it. I don't mean 'question' - I mean 'explore'. Which you failed to do.

Obviously brushing your teeth is important but not whitening, cosmetic dentistry etc.

Arf at Krumbum's dental health messaging just in case she appeared to be advocated poor dental hygiene.

Loving the idea of all these ill, unhealthy, fat, yellow-toothed feminists

but the very worst thing of all is that the odd pube might escape from around the cozzie

madness

It doesn't fit with my lifestyle, its just not something I feel at all strongly about. Thats the way it is. i have much more concern for the issues that are detrimental to all genders. What about the lack of socio-economic egality in our society or the lack of social mobility.

I have a black male child in inner city London, I have far greater concerns about him (the lack of expectation of achievement, the propensity to become involved in criminality or gangs, his harassment by the police etc etc) than the idea that my daughter might feel conscious about being overweight. Which if I'm honest will do her bloody good because being overweight is unhealthy , or do we just encourage all this exercise and 5 a day for nothing.

I don't believe feminism has anything to do with rape.

This is what makes me so so cross. You are of course entitled to all your opinions but I'm not, because my views don't fit with your personal feminism ideal I'm selfish, and have lost my autonomy?!

Interrogate? if my mother had dared to interrogate me about my fanny grooming, I'm afraid she would have told to mind her own.

Another angle OP to take is safety making sure she doesn't use cheap creams if shes hellbent on doing it, making sure she knows how to do it properly, to make sure not to use a rusty razor etc and to clean up after herself!!.

No I was explaining to ruby why beautifying is not about health...

In what way does feminism have nothing to do with rape ruby?
It is one of the main aims of feminism to stop sexual abuse so that makes no sense.

I care about sexism, racism, socialism and much more. And it isn't based on it fitting in with my lifestyle [Hmm]

But Ruby - it's not about her being a healthy weight. That is only one teeny-weeny part of what mags/the CULCHA does.

There appear to be many messages: 'be a healthy weight', 'look after your teeth' etc.

But actually there's only one:

"You're shit and you know you are. Buy stuff to make yourself less shit."

Your daughter's future is as circumscribed by her gender as your son's is by his race. You should rail, till your throat is sore and your lungs give out, against both.

Question to Feminist posters

honest question, if you found out you're 14 year old daughter was fully removing hair downstairs and wearing thongs , what would you do/suggest others to do? have you done it before?

I'm wondering how you would trad that line between parent and creepy when it comes to 'personal' choices how would you do that without mortifying your child?? .

The message don't get fat, your ugly doesn't make ppl healthier, it makes more ppl overweight and on the other end contributed to eating disorders. It does not make make ppl healthier.
Your son is a victim of racism and your daughter is a victim of sexism!
Why do you only care about 1? Her high risk of being sexually assaulted in her life, harassment by men on the street, The likelihood of being paid less. Are all these not as important as the risks posed against your son?