to be aghast at the effort my sister puts into her children's schoolwork

[parakeet]

My sister is a few years older than me, had children before me and in many ways she's been a bit of role model for me. Hers are now teenagers, and I would have thought they should be fairly independent by now. But with the 13-year-old she is in charge of what subject he's revising, how long he does, then she tests him at the end. Even the 15-year-old is monitored to ensure she does X amount of hours a day, plus instrument practice. They are both fairly bright, by the way, and at a private school.

I'm very curious to know if this is standard. And I'm really hoping it's not because I can't bear the thought of having to go through all this with mine in future. I can't understand it because our parents didn't treat me or my sister like this at all - we made our own decisions. She was a super swot, I was a last-minute crammer - our choice, and we both did OK.

I'm worried that when my children are at this stage, if I leave it up to them and they do badly, they'll hold it against me later. On the other hand, I CANNOT FACE going through the torture of GCSEs, A levels all over again, TWICE.

There is a world of difference between answering a question, or providing appropriate help if asked (eg hearing scales, or listening to a poem, or buying sheet music) and micromanaging someone. There is also a world of difference between appropriate help and actually assuming responsibility (eg, setting out someone's revision timetable for them, doing their Internet research for them, sourcing their resources). That is going Too Far.

Honestly, that approach is a recipe for disaster. I'm a university tutor and it's really obvious which students have never developed self-motivation, organization and study skills.

The aim is not to make them do their work now, but to set them up for the future - and if that means a few missed assignments now, then so be it.

She's a fool, they will rebel BIG time - I've seen it happen & its not pretty - besides they may be learning academic stuff, but they are certainly not learning how to cope & organise themselves as adults

Helping is fine - being a sounding board for test questions etc, but pushing & taking over as its sounds like you DSIS is doing is treating them like small DCs NOT the young adults they are now becoming.

I wouldn't even do this with my 9 yr old - I do encourage & make sure she does homework to the best of her ability, stretch herself etc (she complains its boring as she's done it in class) - but then I back off & let her get on with it, by the ages you mention I would be expecting her to do her own & call for help if she needs a sounding board - but that would be it

Exotic the op's kids aren't 18 and surely giving support throughout secondary means you can sit back and relax once they're in uni.

The only good thing re uni fees imvho is that they must take over from parents as an encouragement to do the work at uni ie they'll be paying the fees whether they spend the next 3 or 4 years in the student bar or not.

I do test my kids after revision, read through projects, just keep an eye when revising however general homework they can manage and they bring me bits to see or ask if any other thoughts I may have. Music practice is pretty much at the same time every day and do say when it is to be done and for at least how long for a bit of guidance. I am not doing homework for them or nagging just hoping showing an interest in my child's education.

rockinhippy, that is not necessarily true.

I did not rebel, I went on and got a good degree AND had fun partying

as did my sibs

I think Caramel's post made sense to me.

You see, my parents helped me in a good way. they showed an interest in the subject, asked questions, and we always ended up looking up things and discussing them. To my parents, learning is FUN and a life long attitude. So reading a book set in China would be a reason to look up Chinese history...for fun IYSWIM. I still do that today.

When my DC do something in history or geography I know nothing about, I ask them to tell me all about it, which they seem to enjoy (me too)

That is not an attitude that leads to rebellion, but one that fosters a love of learning.

Chandon exactly my thoughts !

You see, my parents helped me in a good way

Chandon I think that line & the rest of your post makes your experience very different from what the OP describes - & pretty much how I play it with my own DD & still will if she needs it when older - I don't doubt that kind of input has positive outcomes - I know from friends who behaved in a similar way to the OPs DSIS & seen the outcome in their now adult DC & you only have to read up on the overly pushed DC prodigies of yore to see how badly wrong it can go if you over do it & take over.

Seems to me there is no right or wrong with this. It depends entirely on the children and the parents. Some children were pushed and hated it, some weren't and hated that. You have to know what motivates your child and also recognise that what seems right to you isn't necessarily what is right for them. Not an easy thing to work out when you are in the thick of things with them.

So far in secondary, I am quite hands off with my DS1 who is in Yr 7 because he just needs to get on with his homework and make sure it is in on time - he doesn't require any help at this stage. Somehow or another, after years of cajoling and out and out nagging in juniors to do his homework (and quite a few tears and tantrums), when it came to the Easter of Yr 6 and the looming SATs he suddenly took responsibility for himself. I was more than happy to stop pushing. Maybe it is that the school give them a planner so he can see what he has to do and is accountable to his tutor when it has a weekly sign off. Maybe all that nagging actually sunk in and my job was done! Who knows.

Maybe, further up the school when organisation is more crucial and his work load higher, he might need more help. I don't know, I will have to play it by ear a bit. I can see him needing help to revise but that maybe because he hasn't really been taught to revise yet. I'm not sure if that is my job or the
school's or whether he will just need help working out what works for himself.

I think if the OP's sister isn't micro-managing every aspect of her children's lives and they do get some real time off, she is probably being helpful if the children haven't rebelled. And anyway, just making sure that a 15 yr old is working a certain number of hours a day is, to my mind, about the child understanding that work is important. If she got a job her boss would make sure she did her hours. How is this different? It would be another matter if she had set up a timetable for the older one and taken away all the autonomy but by the sounds of it, she hasn't.

Hmm what exactly in the op is deemed as damaging or not good? Monitoring 13 or 15 year olds to ensure they do X amount of revision(as long as it's not Tiger Mum hours) is surely what you'd expect to do.

Fat lot of good half an hour of revision would do for any child when they rocked up to the exam hall.

I speak as a child who sat up in her room saying she was revising but who was in actual fact reading Jackie magazine.A little bit of monitoring would have done me the world of good.

Genuinely interested as my eldest are 8 so would like to know when support becomes Tiger Mum.

Rockpool I agree with you. We are aiming to instil the work habit in our youngsters so that they become self-starters. Atm that is "work in progress" I agree but there will be a point where they are ready to supervise their own work completely without nagging. That will come (I hope) BEFORE they go away to uni. I do worry that teenagers may see A Levels as a passport to Uni where they can while away their time, racking up debts as they do so. With careful preparation they should be in a good position to use their time at Uni to their advantage. It's a balancing act for parents between nagging them to death and ignoring them.

"It's a balancing act for parents between nagging them to death and ignoring them"

Yes, I think thats the real point & as someone above has said it has a lot to do with the DCs personalities too, but its a difficult one - I do think its important not to push too hard - thankfully mine didn't push me at all - I think they knew me well enough to know that I would have kicked back big time, so they got it right. - where as my friend didn't when she pushed one of her DCs because he was G&T & wanted him to make something of himself & pushed him towards law even choosing his exam subjects for him - he rebelled big time & didn't even go to Uni & still doesn't work now - & thats just the best bit :(

I have just realised I misread the OP though - I read it as choosing the DCs subjects, as in poor DC has no choice in their future path, not revision subjects which makes more sense if they are weaker in one area & perhaps lazy too

my mum did this until I was 15 and it didn't do me any harm. After that, I was so used to her habit of "never procrastinating", "always revising everything twice", etc that I just kept on doing it. I did well at uni as well (and no, she didn't come with me!)

I think this thread shows that the same parenting style can be successful or a complete failure, result mostly depends on the kid. So there is no one answer right for everyone.

Personally, I don't have the energy to be a TigerMum. I can stretch to gentle steering & monitoring.

I must say I find it very odd that people say DC who have had support and help will fail once they leave home.

If I'm not mistaken, they go to university at 18, so childhood should be a kind and gradual transition to independence. Different DC's will be ready to do things at different ages. Forcing somehting on them at 11, just because they're 11 seems a little harsh.

My DS has been doing his revision and homework with almost no input from me from year 5. But DD in year 8 still very much wants and needs my involvement. She likes me to draw up the timetable with her. She likes me physically around while she studies. And she likes to be tested regularly....yes it's a PITA but I have no doubt that bit by bit she will become independent.

And I should say that yes, I will still check from time to tiem that they are doing what is needed. Just as my Mum did for me.

As I said earlier, I have DC who are very different from one another and while I take a general interest in their school and progress, I never know anything about their homework or what is due when. They get into trouble at school if it's not handed in.

I find it very frustrating when the effort some of them put in doesn't produce the results they're clearly capable of in terms of natural ability but there seems to come a point where they realise what level of effort is required. It may be that that comes too late to get their best results or to get to the best university of which they're capable, but I don't see that one can force the issue without hideous, counter-productive conflict which will come out at some point in the wash.

yellow sometimes DH and I get horredously frustrated when our DC approach a task in a clearly inefficient way.

And we try to steer them...it's so hard not to say 'Oh FFS I got an A at A level in that, give me some credit...'

This reminds me of people saying if you let a toddler sleep in your bed, they will want to stay there forever. But they don't! I think this is similar - if you offer the support and help over time the amount needed will decrease, just because your children grow up and mature.

But I don't get down to the level where I know what the tasks actually are.

I steer only up to a point: I steer them towards a good school for secondary level, quite firmly I guess. Once there, I'm hands off except for showing an interest in the most general of ways. With the DS who are doing less well than they ought, I tell them that they're limiting their options for later life, but I still think the impetus has to spring from them.

DD (y5) says that her best mate says (yeah yeah, Chinese whispers, I know) that best mate's grandfather does a huge amount of homework with her (with the best mate). DD was kind of shocked & can't decide what to do think. I just let DD get on with it (she does a good job, too).

I know that DD will come good in long run, the skills she's learnt now will serve her beautifully in long run. But it slightly irks to think her teachers might not realise how much she is doing off her own back compared to others.

I still hold hand of DSy3 & crack the whip at DSy7 to get their homework done. Different kids, different needs.

yellow you are braver than me .

My two are very keen beans. But I'm aware that as puberty take sits hold, they may become less so. If I felt they were not achieving their potential, I'd be very frustrated. I don't think I could help myself from interfereing .

I don't help at all. DD2 does her homework at the kitchen table, whilst I make dinner. I am there if she needs a prod in the right direction, or is stuck, but otherwise I don't contribute at all. Obviously, I'll happily test her if she wants me to.

I think it's very obvious which children get too much help with their homework, it's like coaching for the 11+, all the kids in DD's class who were hothoused to pass are struggling to keep up, and have been for the past year. Two have left because of that, that's two places that could have gone to a naturally more able child.

Yep, I have no idea what the tasks are, although sometimes I will get DS saying something like 'I got 75% on the my maths so that's good' and I will suggest to him that going back and trying to get 100% would be No Bad Thing. If he had an issue with maths - not understanding how to do it - then if he sued me I would be happy to help. He doesn't seem to have understanding issues though, just 'silly mistake' issues and only he can resolve those. And the only way he will resolve those is by taking responsibility for his own work not transferring it to me or his father.

Actually, sometimes DD1 will say 'I'm doing a project (or test) on X' and if I've got a good book that's relevant (often the case in history or say lit crit) then I will either waft it around or tell her where it might be (our librarianship was only ever approximate at best, everything has gone tits up since DH rearranged the playroom/musicroom/library o find space for his accordions. Don't ask. :( ) While DS was on his whooping cough enforced sabbatical from school he had a homework on jazz and I did sort of get involved in that - I made him sit with me all day, him coughing, me writing reports, listening to my jazz playlist (many of the musicians he was already familiar with, but not all). The conclusion was though that he went with what he had first wanted to use as the basis for his project -Louis Armstrong cos of the H2G2 connection and Benny Goodman cos he and the girls all like the Carnegie Hall album. My attempts to convince him that Mingus and Dizzy were far better subjects for a project fell on stony ground. :(

I think there's a vast range of what people do to help their children.

Mine are both at primary - one is in reception, one in yr4.

I help my elder one with his homework, it's homework, it's obligatory and he gets in a tremendous state about it. I quite like doing it with him.

The younger one is meant to read but we rarely do. It is those ORT books and they are SO DULL they make me want to slit my own throat.
He reads other books on and off, but my attitude is that school is school and home is home and I'm blowed if I will make a tired little boy do boring stuff after school. If they want him to do it at school, fine, but not on our time thanks.

I am constantly overwhelmed by how much my friends with children in reception appear to panic about their child's learning...it's like they don't realise these things happen by themselves, not entirely without input from teachers and us of course but if a child wants to learn, he will do it.
And ability among especially boys in primary is so random and varied and they really do catch up later most of the time.

I try and avoid the moments when the discussion wanders into how well a 4yo can read or what sounds he has trouble with...it seems so unnecessary. then I worry that everyone else is mad about extra help for their kids and I'm letting them down somehow.

I don't know - just do what feel natural and works for your family.

But word part of any young person's potential is their preparedness to be arsed. DS is fundamentally less arsed than the DDs. I can't change that. He doesn't want to do badly but he will (as he puts it) better prefer to do things his way, ask for help when he needs it and take the consequences if he finds that his estimate of what constitutes sufficient effort falls short of what the teachers feel is sufficient. In fact, he is getting 'excellent' or 'good' marks for effort across the board. So he is a little different from the girls who would be all 'excellent' but actually - he believes 'good' is good enough. They wouldn't. I wouldn't. His dad would. Who is to say who is right? Ultimately it is his life and if he asks for help of course I will give it but he needs to develop personal responsibility and that's the most important thing a parent can do for their child IMO - help them do that.