to think that gender selection should be legalised in the uk?

[ChocolateBiscuitCake]

I have three glorious boys. I would love to have a girl as well.

I really don't understand why PGD for gender selection is illegal in the UK. I completely accept that it should not be funded through the nhs, but can not see why couples can not pay privately.

You are not choosing eye colour etc, simply the gender of your child to balance your family dynamic.

If ivf couples are allowed to pick/choose/freeze embryos, why is PGD illegal?

Aibu to think that it should be legal in this country? I would not be trying to create a 'superior race', just balance our family with a girl - a daughter for me and DH and a sister for my sons.

people should be free as far as possible to make their own decisions, rather than rely on the state to tell them what to do

I agree with that usually but the gender of a child has nothing to do with the state to begin with does it that's just nature. Leaving nature as it is intended to be is nothing like "relying on the state to tell them what to do"

I believe that those who are anti one sex or the other should examine whether they are the right people to be parents.

At the best they have pre-conceived ideas of gender roles that may have a lifelong influence on the child they bring up.

At the worst they could be seriously damaging their child's self esteem.

There are some truly disturbing posts on this thread - reading it has made me feel dreadfully sorry for little boys already born and those to come. I have a DS and am pregnant with no 2 and would consider myself incredibly fortunate to have a healthy baby at the end - a brother or sister for DS would be just perfect.

Why the hell would a sister be better?? I have a great relationship with my mum too, fwiw - and a crap one with mil. Christ, I will have to hide this thread before I implode.

Some people simply believe that one gender is "better" for their family than another and that's why they want to control it. Surely that has to be wrong?

There's a lot of nonsense and myths stated about boys and girls. Cordelia Fine's book will say it much better than I ever could -

www.amazon.co.uk/Delusions-Gender-Science-Behind-Differences/dp/1848312202/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340380500&sr=8-1

As someone who has had IVF treatment both unsuccessfully and successfully I can tell the OP that she is out of her tiny mind if she thinks it is that simple.

"IVF Couples" have no choice at all to which embryo(s) are implanted, the embryologist will choose the healthiest ones with the most chance of successful implantation.

IVF has a low success rate.

The drugs involved in IVF screw you up physically, mentally and emotionally.

YABVU.

And that's before I even get to the 'balancing' of families

Children aren't toys or accessories. I was accosted once by a mother in the playground who has 4 boys who told me quite aggressively that I shouldn't have had a daughter if I was going to dress DD (then a toddler) in denim dungarees, stripey t-shirt and trainers. Apparently I should have had her in a lovely dress with frilly socks and Lelli Kellis and pierced her ears for her, as that's what she dreamed of doing with her DD should she ever have one . I walked away feeling quite glad that she hadn't had a girl if that was what lay in store for the poor child - what if that little girl had been a tomboy?

As a side note - Worra, where did you get that about Asian families from? DD goes to an all-girls school, something like 75% of her classmates are of Asian origin and every single one of them is a first-born girl (and often an only child).

OK, fuzzpig, that is a really good response - you've convinced me! I'm not a fan of nanny state but I am a big fan of Mother Nature.

Hey Lovecat please don't judge Mums of 4 boys based on one loon who you met in a park.

In the playground, actually. I was simply offering it up as an example of unrealistic gendered expectations.

Feel free to ignore the rest of my post, though.

So sorry, playground, not park. My mistake.

But a parent who honestly believes they would be a better parent to a child of a particular sex, who chooses that sex - how are they different from parents who truly believe that they may or may not be able to cope with a child who has a cleft palate or a club foot (both of which have been given as reasons why a pregnancy has been terminated). I know that the examples I'm giving are extreme, but to me, it's splitting hairs to say that you can choose whether to continue with a pregnancy or not, because of x,y and z, but you can't choose on other grounds.

Nature, in this respect, doesn't really come into it, since any kind of screening, assisted conception etc could surely be argued to be 'unnatural'.

And the argument about self-esteem? Really? There are numerous ways to screw up a child. Not sure that yearning for a particular sex, having a baby of that sex and being a happy and contented parent to that child is necessarily going to be an issue. Having a child that you wish was the opposite sex could be far more detrimental to that child's self-esteem.

My reference to IVF is In relation to unused frozen embryos - where there was once moral judgement 20 years ago on what happened to them, it is now accepted that it is okay. So perhaps in time, views on PGD will change.

For those of you horrified by this thread, believe me, I am more horrified by what some women are prepared to do...you can now test for a baby's gender at 7 weeks and then choose to keep/not keep the baby.

As someone else said, I see a huge difference in selectively aborting an unwanted gender over creating a desired gender.

And FWIW, it is ridiculous to suggest I don't love my other children or that if I had a DD that I would love her more than my boys? And arguments about whether I am cut out to be a parent or how my boys would feel if they knew we wanted a daughter are silly.

The good thing is, lots of you don't agree with it, so at least if it was legal, the service would not be oversubscribed . Many progresses in science enable us to achieve something beyond what mother nature intended, surely this is just another?

From what I've read about PGD and gender disappointment,one thing always leaps out at me and thats the fantasy lives the people create for their future child based on gender. Mothers and daughters doing girly things,boys being sporty and athletic. Very rarely does fantasy ever fit the reality,so the 'chosen' child will disappoint in some way.

fullofregrets your posts are very strange and in my completly lay view,some counselling or therapy may be required. Opting for a girl due to abuse issues,husband traits etc are shaky reasons as are your weird view of sons. IMVHO

"Creating a desired gender"?! What a wonderful attitide to have towards having a child!

Freckled - there is predictable outcome from having a cleft palate or club foot. They are disabilities that affect the child's life. Being a boy or girl is not a disability. I think people who abort for minor disabilities are being just as unrealistic about parenting as those who choose gender by the way.

Not read any of the posts other than OPP so sorry if it's moved on by now.

OP YABVU.

IVF isn't a way of choosing an embryo. The medical team choose the embryos which are healthiest. Not anything to do with their sex at all.

If you start with gender selection then I think it will very soon be a eye colour/height/hair colour etc issue.

I think you would also end up with an uneven balance of girls:boys in some areas. I've personally witnessed the pressure brought to bear on an Indian friend by her PiL when expecting her dc2. Dc1 was a girl. Her SiL had 4 late terminations before conceiving a boy.

Boys and girls are all very different. I've got 2 of each. People tell me how lucky I am to have a 'balanced' family. I usually smile and nod as it's not a big deal.

It makes me sad to think of people only having a baby because they want a girl/boy. It makes me sad to hear people say within earshot of their children that they wished they'd had a boy/girl instead or that they 'should have' been a boy/girl.

Many people struggle to have children at all. I'm grateful for those I have regardless of their sex.

I can only imagine what parents of children with disabilities are thinking about this thread! Gender selection can only be followed by the 'if it's not 'perfect' get rid' type approach.
Of course we want the best for our children and I'm not talking about the parents that have had to make the heartbreaking decision to not go forward with the pregnancy due to conditions that would cause their children pain or a fulfilled life but I can just imagine some people wanting to know that all fingers and toes were there, head is the right size, ears not sticking out too much etc
People can and do live very fulfilling lives with disabilities. It's hard work but not all doom and gloom. Some of the children I know wouldn't have been allowed to have been born and that's a travesty!
Gender selection is not my cup of tea. A friend had IVF eight times until it was successful and then was sooo disappointed it wasn't a boy. I just can't get my head around that.

I can't understand how somebody could purposely get pregnant with the intention of getting an abortion after 18 or so weeks (before that baby is too undeveloped to accurately tell) if they are not the preferred sex. It's a very coldhearted mentality and better if people like that are discouraged from breeding.

What if the scan is wrong and you give birth to another boy, you going to demand the right to post birth termination because it's not what you want?

freckled that's an interesting point. I don't really know enough about the long term implications of either of the conditions that you mention but I'm erring on the side of thinking that I would consider terminating for those reasons fairly morally suspect. But am quite ill informed, I freely confess.

However, I still don't think that the distinction between
(x) terminating a pregnancy because of a terminal prenatal diagnosis picked up via screening and
(y) terminating a pregnancy because the baby does or does not possess a penis

is hairsplitting. I just can't consider those equally justified but I suppose it is very difficult to decide where precisely to draw the line.

In some countries I would have been given the option to abort my DC2 for not being stereotypically perfect,but to me she is perfect because of who she is,not what she is.

I missed a couple of pages out but read most of this thread.
I am really puzzled that the OP seems to think the practice would not be abused or cause gender imbalance because the families who use it would surely have one of the other gender already.

No, no , no NO.

Despite the general perception that boys are the least desirable on MN that is certainly not my experience in RL.

I constantly have to bite my tongue when faced with parents who clearly and openly value boy babies over girls. They make no attempt to hide it. They love their girls but they want a boy and will keep going until they get one.

I am openly congratulated for having four boys, admired even! I would go so far to say envied.

I have noticed a distinct change in attitude towards me on a number of occassions when people find out.

If gender selection became easy in this country I would bet that boys would be the most chosen, not girls.

Look at China with their one child laws. There is such a shortage of females that girls are being kidnapped to provide future brides for the treasured boys!

We mess with this at our peril. Just because we can does not mean that we should

I really don't get the whole boys are better than girls or vice versa-maybe it's because I have one of each flavour? I can honestly say I didn't give a shit what sex I got either time (& no we didn't find out until the birth), I just knew I was bloody lucky to have had problem free pregnancies & beautiful healthy babies.

Anybody who thinks it's some sort of achievement to manage to get multiples of the same sex really is a bit of a moron.

Unfortunately our many cultures and societies see boys as a better bet.
I think ours does tbh. We may get a lot of the surface girly, pink, glitter, pampering parties stuff but when it gets down to the nitty gritty, its a different story.

i think yabvu, its wrong, babies are a blessing regardless of their gender, and gender selection should only be carried out for medical reasons ie a when a child of a particular sex could have a genetic condtion.

i have 4 boys and then baby no 5 is a girl, well she is a toddler now. when pregnant with no 3 and 4 and at their births we DID get comments from relatives that were 'disappointed' at their arrival! how the FUCK can you be disappointed at the arrival of a fabulous new baby, just because htey have or dont have a penis? i mean seriously. yes its lovely having a dd, purely from my pov as i am enjoying buying girls clothes (tho she still wears her brothes hand me downs and lots of unisex stuff as well) i think that would be the same had i had 4 girls and then a boy.

i get lots of comments on how pleased i must be to finally have a girl etc which i find very rude, particularly when said in front of my sons and i feel an sense of protection towards them when comments are said infront of them.

i consider myself hugely lucky to have got pregnant easily, had easy pregnancies and births and healthy children, its all i could ever hope for.

and having just gone through the process of donating eggs to be used for a couple needing ivf, i cannot understand why you would choose to do that on the basis of a preferred gender, it was very invasive, with injections and a general anasthetic to remove the eggs, i did it as i have been so fortunate i wanted to give someone else that opportunity of having a family and feel honoured to have been able to do so, but to do it to choose gender, well that makes me feel sick tbh.

if you really think you would prefer one gender over another then why are you having a child in the first place? each child is a human being, an individual, their own person right from word go, my 5 all are incredibly different from one another, despite looking very similar, i couldnt imagine life without them or why you would actively attempt to choose the sex, they are who they are, regardless of gender.

Just the thought of gender selection makes me want to vomit. Whatever next? Blue eyed, curly haired babies only? Maybe some 'clever genes' thrown in as well. It is devastating that some people think we should have control

... Control over this...