to think if we fund religious schools through taxes, DD should be considered for a place?

[experiencethis]

I'm not originally from the UK, so maybe I am missing the point here. It puzzles me that whilst some religious schools are (partially) government-funded by taxpayers, they do not treat all as equals when allocating places. Our local state CoE primary is lovely and walking distance from our house. But looking at the local authority's website we'd have to get the local CoE church to validate that we are part of the congregation (which we aren't) and attend service a number of times per quarter (which we don't). DH and I would be happy for DD to attend a religious school, we think exposing her to different faiths and beliefs will make her a well-rounded adult (we have Jewish, Catholics and Buddists in the wider family). She will then be able to decide on any of them or none at all as she pleases. AIBU ?

Agreed Jamie.

As for those who have posted that if you want to get your child into a local state school, you should worship Jesus and go to church regardless of whether you are a Christian - would you be happy if the boot was on the other foot and your child was denied a state school place unless you submitted to Allah? I don't think so somehow.

I agree - you don't have to bring God into it in order to instil good values. That wasn't actually my point - more that DS's school do not teach or infer a vengeful God as many people think church schools do.

AND I am quite aware that people with no faith also have morals and social conscience. I am the only religious person in a huge group of friends who are atheist.and openly laugh at me for my beliefs. My friends are all wonderful people.
I neither meant nor implied that only those of faith can have conscience. If it came across in that way then I apologise.

Excellent post Chaz!

Promise you'll repost it every time this issue comes up on MN, it so clearly illustrates the problem with allowing faith schools to cherry pick!

Just going back to why the Church owns schools...yes, they set up a lot of schools in the 19th century. They did it 'to provide mass provision of Christian education for the poor ' (see here)

Not to provide education for Christian families. To provide Christian education for the poor. Shame on the apologists for the current system of discrimination.

They do do that though don't they Grimma? Provide education to the poor.

Although I guess it depends how you define poor? Is poor in this context poor only if you are getting FSM, or is too poor to be able to afford private education poor enough?

Times have changed. If these schools were really only going to provide for the poor by today's standards in this country (as poor is very different all around the world) then that would still be discrimination. Which would be no better than the way it is now anyway.

They do do that though don't they Grimma? Provide education to the poor.

Not notably, according to Chaz's statistics. Yes, times have changed. When it comes to their schools, the church appears to have dropped serving others in favour of being self-serving.

That depends on the definition of poor though doesn't it?

Plenty of people couldn't afford private school but don't get free school meals. I really don't think FSMs should be a criteria for school admissions any more than faith should.

I expect when they started "poor" was not a means tested definition - it just meant allcomers/ anyone not already being educated privately.

I agree Grimma the religious discrimination thing is completely self serving of the church - they use state funding to coerce people to come to church. If they had any integrity they world stop.

For most CofE schools outside London, Church attendance does not determine the majority of the pupils. For my DCs school attendance at a specific church is the second criteria, but only one or two pupils every other year at most are admitted on that criteria, the next criteria is a defined catchment, which is followed by being Christian and it being the nearest CofE school.

Grimma-what's that got to do with anything?
the fact is the chuch 'owns' schools , therefore can attach strings.

Mate of mine who is a very devout and active Christian applied to highly thought of C of E school in London back in the days when they could still interview parents and children. They turned her DD down, blatantly because she was a single mum. (DD went on to do excellently at super-selective, so it was their loss).
I know not all church school are like this, but I'm sure some of them would still be doing exactly that if it hadn't been made illegal.

Interesting that the CofE own the land and buildings of some CofE faith schools.
Agree that this is through tithing and such like which was more or less universal taxation anyway. I'm not sure the CofE should even own the national churches (which would have been both Catholic originally and built by the whole community) Annoys me anyway that more liberal views are being so squeezed out by the more literal evangelicals. Ancestors of mine were lovely old style christians, concentrating on charity to others. My maternal great grandfather was even a vicar at the turn of the last century.

I went to our local church for many years mainly to get my DCs into the best, local, faith, secondary in our area (Go on ! Flame me ! - reminds me of the old, medieval wall paintings of hell such as that depicted in Chaldon church )

Whilst there I give thanks to whatever God there may be for the many blessings in my life (especially my wonderful DCs ), and pray that I might henceforth live a "sober, righteous, and godly life" I go out into the world to work with other children and families to help them in their own journey's through life.

Alongside all these shananigans I continue to attend our local Quaker Meeting House which is the faith community which I was attending before I heard of all this complicated school admissions palaver.

My DD got a place at the secondary school, and I'm hoping that DS will be able to follow her there next year, mainly on "sibling" grounds - As long as I don't cause too much trouble to the powers that be through contentious posts like this one But hey, it's a free country, isn't it ?

Not all of the CofE is literal evangelicals, in fact if you mean fundamentalist you mean a very small (if vocal) minority, even among evangelicals.

Like your "juggling" analogy seeker (bottom of page 2)

Does feel like I've been juggling in this way too over last few years - which may have contributed to my NN. Be careful if you start down this path, you may feel it's taking over your life ! Overall, worth it though - if it works !

I think the building of most churches was paid for by benefactors

Juggling: "I went to our local church for many years mainly to get my DCs into the best, local, faith, secondary in our area."

I think something like 20% of state schools are faith schools (almost all C of E or Catholic, with a handful of exceptions) but only 10% at most of the population are regular churchgoers. So church schools should reasonably expect that about half of their pupils are non-practising Christians. If they insist on using very strict admissions criteria, then they can expect that some people will pretend to be practising Christians to get in. (I realise you're a Quaker so not quite the same.)

I always enjoy the irony that church schools would prefer to take the children of dishonest atheists than honest ones who refuse to play the game.

Thanks for not giving me too much of a roasting hackmum (was nervous at first when I saw your quote from my post, and wondered what might follow !)

I think there's an interesting debate to be had but, perhaps understandably, most in my position or similar seem to stay remarkably quiet !

Juggling: Well, perhaps they shouldn't stay quiet. It seems to me that church schools have set themselves up for exactly this kind of problem - if the only way you can get into a particular school is by going to church, then a lot of people will start going to church. They could easily redress that problem by making the school open to allcomers with a standard set of admissions rules (locality, siblings etc). Arguably that inclusive approach is more Christian anyway.

Yes, I don't really think the churches should be setting up these kind of hoops for people to jump through.

Once they were there I guess I admit I was tempted to jump through them for the sake of my DC's.

But I think the churches and schools should have a serious think about what they're doing with all this.

I always thought the reason faith schools don't accept atheist families was because they were afraid there would be demands that religion be removed from the education? I guess I made an ASS out of myself for ASSuming.

In Aus you don't need to jump through as many hoops, merely be baptised as Catholic.

Lurking: "I always thought the reason faith schools don't accept atheist families was because they were afraid there would be demands that religion be removed from the education."

I don't know if that's the case - you'd have to ask them. The cynic in me says that they know more middle-class families attend church and therefore it's one way of guaranteeing a more middle-class intake. However, I may be wrong. I think the churches would probably say that if you're going to have a faith community in a school, then you do need all the children to be of the same faith for it to work.

There was an interesting case a few years ago of a Catholic primary school in Glasgow that had a mainly Muslim intake. The Muslim parents wanted it to change over to being a Muslim school. I don't think they succeeded, though.

Since there is mainly Christian worship compulsory in all State schools, us bolshy Atheists would be better to campaign against that than banning religion in religious schools. Personally I feel that Church and State should be entirely separate but money talks and the Church owns the land and buildings. Is "money talks" one of the ten commandments? I don't know, what with not being religious and all. I have lots of Christian friends BTW and know that individual Christians do wonderful things, the Church schools annoy me though.

there is a secularist campaign to remove the act of worship from state schools. though of course you can remove your individual child from it.

'faith' schools have to demonstrate a further 'ethos' i believe and not all of them select on faith grounds.

I was one of those children who walked out of the assembly. It wasn't pleasant so I don't really DD to have to do that. I at least had a Jewish friend to walk out with but I wouldn't have wanted to walk out alone.