to think if we fund religious schools through taxes, DD should be considered for a place?

[experiencethis]

I'm not originally from the UK, so maybe I am missing the point here. It puzzles me that whilst some religious schools are (partially) government-funded by taxpayers, they do not treat all as equals when allocating places. Our local state CoE primary is lovely and walking distance from our house. But looking at the local authority's website we'd have to get the local CoE church to validate that we are part of the congregation (which we aren't) and attend service a number of times per quarter (which we don't). DH and I would be happy for DD to attend a religious school, we think exposing her to different faiths and beliefs will make her a well-rounded adult (we have Jewish, Catholics and Buddists in the wider family). She will then be able to decide on any of them or none at all as she pleases. AIBU ?

lovebunny Yes, let's take your analogy of a football team, let's just say a football team refused to accept players on the basis of their religion they would findthem selves in front of a judge quick smart! It's called discrimination and it's illegal.

So how is it fair to discriminate against children on the same basis with regard to their access to education? It's an anachronism.

Its not fair on them any way you look at it, excluded from the school in the expensive catchment area and the faith school because their parents either weren't regular churchgoers or didn't know the system to play it (I'm not suggesting your sister did this, but there are occasions when parents do it).

These children need better schools, all children do. No idea what the answer is but there are schools in "poor" areas that do exceedingly well, as well as schools in "better" areas. I'm sure there are reasons that can be transferred, higher expectations of children, good leadership.

RavenAK, love your post.

me too RavenAK

"What some people are reluctant to admit is that the strong religious values instilled at faith schools have a positive effect on a child's attitude and behaviour which may lead to better performance."

but most don't instill strong religious values. frankly a 'religious' (or any other kind) value without a good head and good teachers is pretty useless. ....I'm not going to admit it because it isn't credible!!!

and all the faith schools in this area are in leafy suburbs with higher house prices. the two crap primaries are in the 50-70s built areas of terraces/ ex-council. you could probably do a 'zoopla heat map' cross comparison with ofsted to see if there was a correlation......

the churches own research backs up my assertion that churchgoers are wealthier than average (google 'tear fund')

Incidentally many hospitals were started by the church - i don't think anyone would suggest preferential admissions to them for C of E congregation would in anyway be acceptable.

It is crazy and does not stand up to any examination. Utter discrimination. My lovely friends DD didn't get into our local community school but was given a place at the local catholic school. All fine except other catholics get priority over her DD2. So despite the fact she lives next door to the school, her DD1 goes there, she does shedloads for the community (and the school) a newly arrived catholic child who lives other side of the town will take precedence over her DD2. Result is my friend ends up with two under 6 at different primary schools. Its madness and an anachronism.

Op; don't send your kid to a faith school if you want her to learn about ALL religions. They will just indoctrinate her into thinking that THEIR religion is the best. I never get why so many non- Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools. It's so hypocritical (dons hard hat).

i think that the church should be able to allocate the spaces in direct proportion to the contribution they make.

church picks up 10% of the tab- they get to allocate 10% of the places

Toptramp, that is simply not true. It may be true of a few faith schools but it's not ime. You are making an incorrect generalisation.

My dc at a CofE school have spent a term studying India, and there was a lot of education about Hinduism along with that. They have also visited a synagogue and a Sikh temple.

when many church schools were bequested to the LEA certain legal conditions were attached wrt intake and character of the school.

we fund Buckingham palace through my tax dollar.Can I move in please?

If you pay your taxes in dollars, you ain't funding the Queen.

"church picks up 10% of the tab- they get to allocate 10% of the places"

if a local business tried to do the same, would you support it? or would you say 'that business is donating for the good of the locality, it shouldn't attach conditions to that'

ha ha 'tax pound' just doesn't sound right!!

I recommend that the OP just pretends that the church school simply isn't there.

This is similar to me and the rubbish secondary school one block from my house. Although I am contributing to this school via taxes, to me it doesn't exist, and so my children go to independent schools.

I think the church/non-church argument is mild compared to rough vs genteel schools. It misses the elephant in the room.

I have an issue with faith schools partially because...it's something that the CHILD can't do anything about and they're the ones being selected/considered for the school. This is where faith is different from other types of selection - for examply by academic ability the child has at least some chance of achieving the selection criteria on their own steam. It's not all about the parents and their lifestyle choices.

THe faith schools in our area are oversubscribed, some heavily. I have always wondered onthe forms how they weigh up relative commitment to the church amongst families.

FOr one of the secondary schools parents have been asked to demonstrate a ten year commitment to church.

I have an issue with faith schools too.
But DD1 now goes to a CofE VA school which has no faith/churchgoing priority admission, and I appreciate that. It's how it should be.

Lets face it, in some areas the Faith schools are the way to go. So if you ever had a bit of hand clapping and serenity in ya, get on up to the church and sign up for their years course, then get christened etc.

I am not joking, you cannot just rock up and go 'I got faith'.

I currently have two children in a Catholic Primary School and I had to jump through so many hoops to get in there. I wasn't Catholic but became one.

I love it. My children are not that impressed.

They are not completely funded by the LEA, 20% has to be found by us. The Catholics. We do it. The school is great.

One of things that never fails to surprise me is that the children are not just frightened of being told off by their teacher, they are scared of God too, which just tells you how the discipline is. It's flippin great.

How this will work at secondary school I am not sure, but I can really remain positive about Catholic schooling, it's fab.

I agree, but then I don't think we should have religious schools. Then all children can go to all schools, it is wrong to segregate.

not4turning - that's how priests and nuns got away with child abuse, cruelty and neglect for so many years. Because the children were scared of God and feared they would go to hell for what they had been made to do. And the priests told them they would go to hell, and their parents too, if they told anyone. And when a few brave children did tell their parents, the church threatened both parents and children with excommunication.

Not an organisation I'd trust with my child, tbh.

Edam - you are quite correct about the abuse stuff and it was horrific, however the Catholic church has tightened up massively in this respect with significant child protection procedures in place. Our local priests will only see children in the full visibility of their parents for example.

Does not excuse what went on in the past though and I agree with my priest friend that the Catholic church has much to feel ashamed of.

In school my DS is taught that God is loving and not something to be feared. If you do something wrong it's not great but God understands and you can make amends by being kind and righting your wrong. God will not punish you if you don't right your wrong but feeling guilty is horrible and not a nice feeling.

If DS was taught all about a vengeful God I would pull him out in an instant. In fact his school while being Catholic is not heavy on religion and the only service they have is Mass once a term thankfully. Much more emphasis is given to being thoughtful, kind and helping others. No special Christian ethos is put on that because a significant number of pupils are either not Catholic or don't attend church. It's more about the kindness of helping others and recognising that some people here and in other countries are not as fortunate as we are.

DDs school manages to be very hot on how to behave, being kind, helping others, thoughtfulness and discipline without bringing God into it. Never understand it when that argument is wheeled out in defence of church schools. You don't need to be religious to behave kindly and morally .

This is such a bugbear of mine as my children are not Christian.

For info - the required contribution from the Church is 10% of capital costs only not running costs (running costs are paid through the payment for each child by the state).

"Before the Education Act 1944, voluntary schools were those associated with a foundation, usually a religious group. The Act introduced two categories of maintained voluntary school:
? Voluntary-controlled (VC). These had all their costs met by the state, but were controlled by the local authority.
? Voluntary-aided (VA). These were partly funded by the state, with the foundation responsible for 50 per cent of capital works and having greater influence over the school. The 50 per cent figure has subsequently been reduced to 10 per cent, although the local authority does have discretion to cover this."

www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/typesofschools/maintained/b00198369/voluntary-and-faith-schools

So for 10% of the capital costs they get to control most of the places in the school.

As for why faith schools get better results below are some details about my local primary schools (3 closest faith & 3 closest non-faith) spot the difference
"Here is an illustration of how choice doesn't really work fairly in the state sector. These are primary schools close to where we live in London all within 10-15 mins walk of each other.

Why is it that the faith schools have lower numbers of both English as Second Language (ESL) and children eligible for free school meals (FSM).

Faith School1 - ESL 67.2% FSM 35.2% (Children acheiving L4 81% L5 19%)
Faith School2 - ESL 34.9% FSM 14.4% (96% / 58%)
Faith School3 - ESL 58.1% FSM 8.5% (93% /58%)

Community School1 - ESL 76.8% FSM 50.2% (76% / 14%)
Community School2 - ESL 81.3% FSM 49.3% (82% / 5%)
Community School3 - ESL 87.5% FSM 58.5% (67% /18%)"

kerala

Sadly, I think some religious people just do not get that that someone with no "faith" does have moral beliefs and social conscience