to think if we fund religious schools through taxes, DD should be considered for a place?

[experiencethis]

I'm not originally from the UK, so maybe I am missing the point here. It puzzles me that whilst some religious schools are (partially) government-funded by taxpayers, they do not treat all as equals when allocating places. Our local state CoE primary is lovely and walking distance from our house. But looking at the local authority's website we'd have to get the local CoE church to validate that we are part of the congregation (which we aren't) and attend service a number of times per quarter (which we don't). DH and I would be happy for DD to attend a religious school, we think exposing her to different faiths and beliefs will make her a well-rounded adult (we have Jewish, Catholics and Buddists in the wider family). She will then be able to decide on any of them or none at all as she pleases. AIBU ?

It's that public services funded by taxation should be available to anyone who needs them without discrimination

Hear hear. For some people a faith school for which they are not eligible is their closest school AND they have no option of a "lovely" state primary.

In so much as they should be allowed to exist at all, if faith schools want public funding they should bloody well not discriminate on the basis of religion - they should have the same admissions criteria as state schools.

Yes I have heard of vat thanks. I don't like the 'well I pay tax' so do most people. You don't get a say in how its spent and or entitled to participate in everything its spent on.
I actually don't like faith schools. However I am realistic and accept they exist. They seem the easy scape goat because other schools aren't good enough. Its not because middle class people that send their kids are more committed. There is more to it.
But its easier to blame another school for the failings of another.
I always wonder why academy schools are not brought into this. They get better funding and are allowed to choose their pupils.

And even state schools say prayers and hold religious assemblies. So the existence of the C of E God is taught as fact, there is no "Some people believe" about it. And the C of E still has bishops in the House of Lords.

Yes, what a rampantly secular country we are...NOT.

I always wonder why academy schools are not brought into this. They get better funding and are allowed to choose their pupils.

Well they're a pile of wank too. Next!

Interesting to know the different points of view to this.

Applying the same principle of tax-funded/selective criteria to other public services really puts things into perspective.

It makes me think that ultimately religious schools have every right to be selective - as long as their funding is also selective.

I like the proposition of co-relating the % of funding to % of places allocated to those outside of religious criteria.

Well I disagree. I assume you kids go to an academy or you have one in your area?

ok another analogy. We are lucky enough to have a great sure start centre nearby. However dd is excluded due to her age. Ds can go but not dd. So why is it ok to exclude one of my children when I pay tax. why is exclusion based on age ok but not religion.

% of government funding to % of places allocated to those outside of religious criteria.

You keep shifting your ground, dprince. Originally you were objecting to the idea that taxpayers should have access to the schools their taxes provide on the grounds that non-workers don't pay tax. Now you accept non-workers do, but are saying people shouldn't feel entitled because they pay tax.

Actually people should be entitled to public services, and generally are. The NHS will treat you whatever your religion, political preference, sexual orientation, whatever. It's only in education that we have this weird anomaly. It's there for historic reasons but we can - and should - change that. The church used to provide hospitals too, we sorted that out, why not sort out schools? They should be available to anyone who lives in the relevant town or village or city district, no matter what the parents believe or fail to believe.

Dprince Really? Think that one through, SureStart is offering age appropriate activities so age criteria apply, the NHS only offers heart transplants to people with faulty hearts, so do you really think SS a sensible analogy???

As several posters have said it is not about whether you pay tax it is about discrimination on the grounds of faith to a state provided service.

Agree entirely with what Ruby said. The question should be why is it that the faith schools seem to do so much better and what should the others be doing to achieve the same?

The whole sector is a mess. No point singling out faith schools, the whole thing needs an overhaul.

e.g. high schools around here specialise in subjects but choose on distance. So if you live in the north of the borough you have to be an arts specialist, if you live in the east you have to be a maths specialist.

If you want to be a science specialist, you have to live in the centre of the borough and be a girl!

Oh, and there is no boy's school but there is a girl's state school and a girl's C of E school just over the borough border. So it is overall harder for a boy to get a high school place than a girl.

We also have a school which has blatantly created a catchment of the strangest shape so it can avoid every council housing estate. Funnily enough, it has the best results in the borough. And when the council tried to challenge it, they... became an academy! So they can now cherry pick children from the richest homes with impunity. We live one mile from it. We are not in catchment (too poor). My friend lives three miles from it, and is in catchment (rich).

I never said non workers should not have access. I asked the question because of people using their taxes as the reason.
I think the sure start actually proves my point. My dd can not go to it. And yet I pay tax. I don't insist they should add things for her. They are discriminating against because of her age. Which seems ok, but you can not so the same with religion. Sure start centres run age appropriate activities. Faith schools are for those that follow the faith. So religion appropriate, but that's not ok.
The whole school system needs looking at. What about the people who can't afford to live near a good school and have several rubbish non faith schools as a choice? But if you have money you can move somewhere better.
It seems to me that moaning about religion based things is ok. If you get rid of faith schools the other schools won't get better. That's the point.
Paying taxes does not give an entitlement to attend. It doesn't work with anything.
For example I had a breast reduction. Despite the fact I was in agony I wasn't large enough to qualify for the op on the NHS. So I paid and went private. Did I stand and moan that I pay my taxes and should get the op regardless? No. I was lucky I could afford it. Others aren't. Paying taxes did not entitle me to anything.

YANBU

Our school is CofE(would rather it isn't but complete lack of choice in our area).No criteria to reach to get into ours which is as it should be.It's the local school and kids in our town have grown up together from toddler group.They all have a right to go to their local school(walking to school is healthy),being part of the community and being educated with their friends regardless of religion.

Tis high time things were changed.If church schools want to exclude kids they should get on and fund their schools 100% themselves.

Blueskycp- it's not just faith schools, any school which has any selection criteria is much more likely to outperform non-selective schools. This is because children have passed exams/ reached a particular academic standard (in all likelihood with the support of their parents/ a tutor/ 11+ exam practice), or the family have actively participated in a religion, in order to win the place ; both factors would indicate parents taking an positive interest in the education of their children . However, there are parents out there who are much supportive (or indeed actively hostile) towards their child's education- they will be much more likely to end up with children in the 'default' school.

Personally, I think that the way to improve all schools is to encourage co-operation, rather than competition, between schools; and to recognise that actually, there are some children whose home lives are having a negative impact on their education and do something to improve that. Though TBH that's only going to get worse under ShinyDave.

The place that springs to mind as one with schools very much driven by religious selection is Northern Ireland; I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the education system there, and I appreciate that the issues there go way beyond schools, but it's not a great advert for schooling segregated on religious grounds.

Dprince- if your DD is too old for SureStart, then that's probably because she qualifies for other age-appropriate state provision such as a funded nursery place, or a school place.

Our local SureStart centre runs activities for all children up until they start school. If your local centre is only providing for a very narrow range of children, it may be that they have been subjected to service cuts.

I actually disagree with faith schools. The one dd went was rubbish and the head there was so un christian and yet a respected member of the church, it put me off organised religion.
I think all schools should have RE. But it should be about all religions and the school should not be based on religion itself.
What annoys me is that people won't accept religious discrimination but will accept it on other grounds. its as though people forget it happens all the time. They think they should have access because they pay tax, when paying tax does not entitle anyone to anything. But it ok to have a go because its religion.
People talk about how unchristian it is but are desperate to get their kids in. High grades are not everything.
A school can just decide to become an academy. Its a long drawn out process. Including a consultation with the parents and teachers.
Banning religious schools or forcing them to take pupils that are not religious won't make crap schools better.

Also, the best school in my area is the bots private school. As we are still deciding whether the kids will attend private or not (I don't really like the idea tbh) my as would get a better education that dd, the girls school is not as high performing. But dd can't go to the boys school.
inertia but what if I don't want her to go somewhere else. I want her to go to sure start. I don't, but that's what people are saying. We don't meet this schools criteria, but I want them to go. So they should change their criteria. I could say that, we could say it about all sorts.

I don't think you've specified, but let's say your DD is 7 and doesn't go to Surestart because she goes to school. The school is set up to provide education with an appropriate curriculum and suitably qualified professionals; the Surestart centre isn't. It's much more than a difference of ideology between two schools which would otherwise both be appropriate- you're talking about two completely different services.

You might as well be up in arms that Meals-on-Wheels or the street-sweeping service won't educate your child.

"I think you will find that the parents of children in church schools are paying their fair share of taxes. The "my taxes" argument is a poor one."

no it isn't. they don't pay more taxes. why should they gain an advantage on admissions criteria?

although i have to say the parish dib part of my council tax pays for the maintenance of two very fine saxon/early Norman buildings and therefore feels a bit more worthwhile than some of the rest of it...

We disagree. Parents who attend church and put in the collection at church are paying for more their kids education than someone whose children attend state schools. And are paying more the the non faith families pay for education at the same school.

"agree entirely with what Ruby said. The question should be why is it that the faith schools seem to do so much better and what should the others be doing to achieve the same?"

the answer is pretty obvious -

age - they tend to be the more established schools, not new builds - the leafy suburb has the c of e school, the 70's council estate has a 70s build school..

selection - selecting churchgoers allows selection in favour of wealthier people

it is nothing to do with anything particular to 'faith' schools.

Parents who attend church and put in the collection at church are paying for more their kids education than someone whose children attend state schools.

you can attend and not put in. and £1 a week aint much...

most of the money the C of E makes i'd think actually came from its huge rental income - it owns fairly major chunks of the UK.