To think that people have the principles they can afford?

[Hullygully]

Do you have, or know anyone that does, principles that would absolutely not be ditched in the event of greater wealth?

Goodness, Josephine. Has the Guardian done something to you personally? I don't think I've ever seen such hatred against a consumer publication. I harbour contemptuous loathing for the Sport newspaper but have never gone to the trouble of hating the individuals who are employed by it.

I don't think the more well off have 'allowed' the less well off to claim moral superiority, I think the less well off have just taken it. There is so much consumerism around nowadays that it's not surprising that people can begin to feel inferior in some way if they can't match it, and principles work well to fill the gap. I don't think that's got anything to do with the more privelidged though.

It's just come about because it's easier to say (and believe) 'I don't take foreign holidays because I don't agree with the carbon footprint I would leave and I want to support British business' rather than 'I don't earn enough to be able to consider going abroad and nor does my partner'.

It's understandable that the cheaper option has become more widely seen as the one with the higher morality behind it, but I don't think it is in truth.

Yanbu

Ok I know 2 people whose principles changed:

1- mil always claimed that people who had regular grooming treatments or got their teeth done were vain and shallow. She then comes into a bit of money and BAM she spends a few grand getting her (admittedly awful) teeth veneered.

2- friend who didn't have loads of cash always said she would work when she had kids "to set them a good example", she then marries a wealthy man and suddenly mothers who work "are selfish and should stay home with their kids"

Do we know ANYONE whose principles AND actions have remained the same post coming into wong?

It is easy to keep your principles if you know you have got some money to fall back on. If I came into money I would hope that I would continue to send my dc's to their state school. However, that decision would be made easier by knowing that I had money put by to pay for any future college courses they may wish to do, be able to fund unpaid internships, be able to help them financially to set up a business, help them buy a house etc.

I don't think mine have changed much, although I'm not rich by any stretch and didn't have many to start with.

Sometimes your actions could change without the underlying principles changing. For example, I know several people who used to be 'on principle' vegetatarian because of animal welfare concerns. Most are now better off than 10 years ago and almost exclusively they now eat meat. But, they eat organic and/or free range meat that is sustainbly farmed that they feel comfortable has been produced without animal suffering. Their actions have changed, but the underlying principles are the same.

I suppose in those circumstances the test would be whether they reverted to vegetarianism if they were unable to continue to afford organic or similar meat

Hmmm. I did recently endure a car journey with two old friends, both of whom are from the wrong side of the tracks, like what I am, and both of whom shocked me with their pronouncements about young single mothers getting free council flats etc.
But I think this was because they are both doing quite well, but still not well enought to buy in London, and it clearly rankles.
I think there can be a point at which the politics one held because they "fit" you and your situation, become redundant, because you have crossed over to a more comfortable place.
Charlotte Bronte has this to say:
?Laws and principles are not for the times when there is no temptation: they are for such moments as this, when body and soul rise in mutiny against their rigour ... If at my convenience I might break them, what would be their worth??
And I quite agree.

My closest friend came into some money and her principes have always been the same, but I don't think she had many to begin with. She's never been sanctimonious about the cheaper option being better somehow, so she didn't put herself in the position of having to change her principles to something different now that she can afford luxuries.

We shoud ask the question both ways.

Do we know anyone whose principes and actions have stayed the same after losing a good income?

Eg - someone who had money and always talked about how they would never eat battery chickens, then began eating lots of cheap meat instead of just eating less but sticking with good quality? Or someone who said they would never wear clothes produced by sweatshops but then became a regular in Primark?

It's not the same tho, losing money means you literally CAN'T afford those same principles often.

Much easier not to have any strongly held principles.

I don't and am very happy.

I'm being less of a drain on NHS resources, which can be used for someone who has a greater need and less resources.

Actually you are not, because the private sector does not train staff (OK it trains a few) if you want to increase resources in the NHS and you are filthy stinking rich then pay for a nurse, Dr, radiographer to be trained.

Re the comming into money, I once heard that described as a magnifying glass, what ever is there to start with becomes magnified.

I know people who came into money by abandoning their morals and principles!!

You can choose to go without instead of abandoning your principles Hully. No one needs eggs. People might need very inexpensive clothes for their dc, but they don't for themselves, especially if they have been in a position to afford good quality previously.

It's not fair to only ask the question one way, because to do so implies that a poorer persons principles aren't as important, or that they are less hypocritical if they abandon them. I think that's unfair.

Josephine You have a real problem.
Simon Hoggart - various schools in Hull.
Charlie Brooker - Wallingford boys, Central London Poly.
Grace Dent - Stirling
Laura Barton - Upholland High, Lancashire.
A small sample but only because I can't be arsed.
I would guess the Guardian scares you, that's partly, I suspect from your various postings around these boards because you're a Mail reader.
The Guardian isn't going to fold, and no matter how much you dig up in your head (they are not anywhere near as nepotistic as you seem to believe), they are a quality newspaper.
Sorry.

The Guardian bleeds money. Of course it will end up folding.

My parents could easily have afforded a car and it would have made life much easier, living as they did in a place with not much public transport. They never did because they had strong views on unnecessary car ownership.

They also travel by train across Europe rather than flying, though trains are actually the more expensive option these days.

And I know several vegetarians who could easily afford meat.

Freddos - what I meant was that if your principles are, for example, to buy locally sourced organic ethically reared meat, poverty might mean you can no longer do so, hence making that principle a luxury - if one continued to eat meat. One could of course switch to lentils etc.

For me it wasn't money but age/experience/having DC that changed my principles.

In truth, when I was younger, I held many principles, often loudly, naively and probably, at times, rather charmlessly. A lot of them meant actually very little to me and were thus easy to uphold.

You see this sometimes here on MN. A poster declares a principle very very loudly...often about somehting that has nothing to do with them, or is so easy to uphold that it is barely worth the emntion, let alone the declaration. Perhpas it makes them fel terribly credible ...

Anyhow, as I got older and faced more of life's conundrums it became clear to me that my dearly held principles were just noise. So instead I created a system of beliefs and ways in which I want to live my life. And how I ahere to my system is with steely pragmatism.

What is your system wordfactory? I am in dire need of one.

Oh and yes, the good old Guardian will fold.

The readership is too low and the advertising revenue is too small.

But what about your system?