to think this woman has no need to apologise for ending her mat leave when she chooses

[lecce]

I am a teacher and am getting seriously pissed off with the comments from my colleagues about a teacher who has been off for about a year and is coming back to work a week before the six-week holiday. She is doing this, I assume because 5 years ago I did the same, because you are not allowed to say you are returning to work during the 6-week break (because you can't really go back) but if your entitlment runs out during that time you face a few weeks with no pay at all.

I assume that this woman, like me, cannot afford the few weeks with no money coming in but wants to maximise the time she can have off. People I work with are saying what a "nerve" she has etc but surely she is doing what is right for her and her family and is not cheating anyone? After all, it's not her fault that this is how the dates have worked out and that there is a 6-week holiday at this time, is it?

I don't really know why I'm so bothered (except I do because several of the people who go on about it were here when I did more or less the same, so I assume they talked about me in the same nasty way they talk about her but have now forgotten my circs) but it depresses so much that people (and women in particular) are so bitchy about each other and quick to believe the worst.

Goodness me, sometimes I think people would only be happy if teachers were working for free!

After having ds1, I returned to work for the last week of the summer term and got paid for the holiday. My ML actually finished at the end of June, so I'd already had 3 weeks unpaid by the time I returned. During my week back, I spent time with the class I was to be teaching in Spetember and attended planning meetings - a valuable use of my time. I then spent the summer planning. The teacher covering me finished when I returned so we weren't both paid for the summer. I don't see what's wrong with that. In the past I have covered ML where the teacher returned just before the holidays, so I wasn't paid. That'sjust the way it goes.

When I had ds2, ML had changed and I was able to return on the first day of the summer holiday - which was actually a PD day. Again, the teacher who covered me wasn't paid for the hols. I could have stayed away until October half-term but chose to return when I did as it was less disruptive to the pupils in that I was there from the start of the school year. I can't see anything wrong there.

So.... If teachers arent paid for holidays, but salary is split into 12 equal parts, surely it would be more equitable that a teacher returning for, say , one week in July after not working since sept, should be paid a proportion of the August pay? And a teacher who waits until start of term in sept to come back should be paid a proportion of the August pay too? With the remainder going to the teacher who has covered the ML for the whole year? After all; teaching a subject or class for a year is not like a days supply. Presumably it involves marking, preparation, writing school reports?

Tbh it seems unfair that a Teacher returning for a week late july gets the whole August pay packet, and equally unfair that a teacher returning in sept gets none?

That's interesting Inertia - so it was done as a help to the payroll system, not to help teachers (so no point blaming them for that!)
Though who wouldn't want to receive pay every month, much easier for finances I would think.

lecce

Just to answer you last post to me - you were right that it had moved on, and I was certainly not intending to say what you seem to have inferred.

I was just pointing out that there is no "loss" to teachers that they can't supplement their maternity leave with accrued annual leave like many women do, because their holiday entitlement is non-discretionary.

I lived with the drawbacks of non-discretionary but generous holidays (more generous than in England) for a fair bit of my life. I recognise that it is not all sunny uplands.

I'm not a teacher, but a granddaughter of a teacher. The reason for INSET days being mid-week sometimes is because the actual trainers go from school to school, and the schools have to book the seminars when the trainers are available.

In my town, quite frequently, 5 of the Secondary schools will have 'rolling' INSET days. I.e. one school on Monday, one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, one on Thursday, and one on Friday.

This is for the ease of the person taking the seminars - they do a whole week in one town, doing one school a day. The schools will talk to each other when booking the same training day, and co-ordinate their efforts this way.

I don't understand the issues some people have with 'gold-plated pensions' and long holidays for teachers, as a parent. The only solution to teachers getting less holiday is for your child to spend even more of the year away from you at school. And why wouldn't you want your DC's teacher to have a decent pension? After all, they are the people who have given your DC the skills they need to become a doctor / lawyer / whatever they become. Surely if they have taught your DC well, you would want them to be well looked after in their old age in return?

And as most teachers retire earlier than workers in the private sector (would you want a 65yo attempting to run around after your 5yo, imagine how tiring that would be), their 'gold-plated pension isn't 'all that', because they will be retired longer.

Lecce it is quite clear that your thread has been completely hijacked and derailed by the teacher-hating lunatic fringe

To answer your original question YANBU to be annoyed at your colleagues bitching. We are expecting our first child in October and we planned our pregnancy for sure - as much as you can with the hand of fate involved! Here in NI we get the princely sum of about 4 weeks full pay, four weeks 90% and 3-4 weeks of 50% pay before dropping to stat maternity pay and then nada. (Haven't checked it yet in full but this is what I've been told). I will be going back for the last week of term next year so I can get my summer pay.

Of course I'm going to do this. I would be completely mental NOT to do this. I can't just 'choose' to go back in July or August and that's not my fault so there's no fucking way I'm going to lose 2 extra months of pay because the choice is being taken away from me. I will therefore go back in late June.

Don't even get me started on "gold-plated" pensions

Yeah, some private pension provision is bollocksed, so let's destroy pensions for all workers (except the ones at the top, natch).

Do people think that eroding the working conditions of public sector workers is in their interests?

Guess what? Your bosses just don't want to compete with those conditions when they decide how badly to compensate you. You will lose every time a comparable public sector worker loses.

But I still think teachers coming back from maternity leave should be considering the welfare of their students.

Which I imagine many do. But clearly not all.

OP ? Any other teachers?
What about my suggestion above? Do you think that would be more equitable? I am not blaming teachers who return late July Because I think it would be unfair to miss out on the entire August salary instalment. But it seems equally unfair for them to get the whole thing. The teacher who has been covering all year ends up missing out entirely, as do teachers who wait until the start of sept term to come back. I can see the dilemma for teachers, but I can equally see how it looks like a piss take from other perspectives

Athing I totally agree about the pension but in what circumstance does a teacher returning from maternity leave have an effect on students? Certainly not coming back at the end of term. In fact much better to come back after exam classes have finished exams and left / returned to school to start 5th form & U6th courses.

I wouldn't want to saunter back in a week before external exams as that could be unsettling so if that's when you mean I agree. Returning at the end of school year is probably the best bet - most people who can afford it do it.

Athinginyourlife I love your last point about the pensions. But can you please show where on this thread there is any mention of a teacher's action that has harmed a student? The last week of term is really not the most crucial, you know and secondary school pupils in particular are very adaptable. My own tutor group were thrilled to see me back and I was bombarded with questions about the baby .

But, anyway, if teachers are working, like most other people, to support themselves and their families, why should they put students above their own children ?

tinkerbel our holidays are different here but having done supply in the past you are paid at a much more generous daily rate, to compensate for holiday pay. I never begrudged not having holiday pay as I simply saved more to compensate.

It does seem a bit silly to incentivise coming back for a week unless a previous poster is right and the intention is to get teachers back before the summer.

Are there any situations where that week back is anything other than pointless?

I can see that getting your head back into things pre-holiday might be useful, but I wonder how that stacks up against any possible disruption.

Where I went to school that would have been extremely disruptive in an exam year and potentially enormously damaging for the pupils.

But I understand in England there are weeks of pointless post-exam summer tedium to deal with, so perhaps it makes no odds.

So is the covering teacher paid a higher daily rate to compensate? I got the impression on here that it's not always the case: the covering teacher is sometime paid the same rate all year and then has to leave before the summer holiday, thus missing out on a pro rata payment for August?

"But, anyway, if teachers are working, like most other people, to support themselves and their families, why should they put students above their own children ?"

They shouldn't put them above their own children, and I've never suggested they should.

I would just hope than not disrupting the education of pupils would be a consideration and would be minimised without putting the teacher at any massive disadvantage.

And I know from experience in teaching myself that that does not always happen.

^Yeah, some private pension provision is bollocksed, so let's destroy pensions for all workers (except the ones at the top, natch Do people think that eroding the working conditions of public sector workers is in their interests?
Guess what? Your bosses just don't want to compete with those conditions when they decide how badly to compensate you. You will lose every time a comparable public sector worker loses.^
Bosses don't have to compete with those conditions, company pensions in the private sector are next to non-existent for most people. Yet these same people are taxed to the hilt to pay for generous public sector pensions so that the workers don't have to contribute as much. Explain how this is fair?

Athing we also get 'contact days' so we can go in and get work sorted for return / the following year. This is especially important for HODs and senior teachers who need to direct other staff. Returning at the end of a school year (ie last week) categorically does NOT disadvantage kids in any way and in fact benefits the school by allowing you to plan for the following year.

Tinkerbel my supply rate included holiday pay. For a longer term post it is probably up to individuals to agree terms with the school - will they be on higher rate 'supply pay' or ordinary pay with holiday entitlement.

Yet these same people are taxed to the hilt Define 'to the hilt'. have you looked at the tax rates of other comparable European countries?

Angelico - yes that rings true with the situation my dh had as a parent governor at a primary school. The only good candidate was not prepared to work all year until late July, only to leave with no pay over the summer. She negotiated pay until the end of August- and then the teacher on ML came back end of July so the school were paying both teachers for the one job. It's difficult to see what else the school could have done, as obviously appointing the best person for the children is their priority. But in doing so, they must have been stung financially. I can see both sides. I can see why teachers do it, but when it results in less money in the budget for much needed things for pupils, I can see why parents and colleagues lose sympathy

Please, keyboard warriors, retrain as teachers! Then you too can have the long holidays and massive pension and stop complaining about them all the bleeding time!

And I can have your cushy private sector job with lunch meetings, clothes allowance, bonuses, Christmas parties and company car :)

How many private sector jobs have any of those things?

"Once you return to work, you become eligible to begin to receive 1 /12 of your annual salary (adjusted for missed / extra days ) whether it is in the holidays or not."
Thank you Inertia, that;s the clearest explanation I've had yet

:o @ crab

Dh always has free to him Xmas parties and lunch meetings with food. He gets bonuses too. Have a go at him! :)

I'm doing exactly the same thing and going back to teaching in 4 weeks for the last 2 weeks of term. My cover was employed on a 1 year contract so she won't miss out and the pupils will be all the better in September for the fact that I have had 2 weeks to sort timetables / schemes of work / read new ofsted framework etc rather than rock up at the start of an academic year all at sea.

I didn't plan it this way but financially and educationally I would be a fool not to do it.

It's the law that teachers are hated. I suppose part of it comes from childhood where you get used to teachers bossing you around and have to deal with some nasty ones. A lot of people find it hard to see teachers as just normal people who are trying to make a living like anyone else. It can be very dispiriting as a teacher to put in so much extra work and to really care about your students only to be told by people who have never taught a day in their lives that you're greedy and selfish. Of course it suits the government to have teachers seen that way so they're not going to combat it.

Teaching is a great job but I don't have the toughness it requires - not in terms of dealing with children but in terms of the ignorant and insulting comments it attracts. It just doesn't feel worth it to put in all the blood sweat and tears only to be made out to be grasping if you expect any money or recognition for your work. It seems like teachers are expected to be faceless monks who expect nothing in return for their massive effort. It's madness. Teaching has perks, definitely, but they don't really make up for the stress and negative feeling. That's why I'll never go back to it. If it were the cushy cakewalk that a lot of people make it out be I would be back in a flash but the reality is a million miles away from the malicious fantasy a lot of people seem to have. They can keep their "gold plated" pension, I'd rather have some respect.