to be completely heartless?

[BrittaPerry]

DH always seems to have an excuse to drink.

When we first met it was that his previous marriage had failed a few months before we met. Fair enough, I was supportive. I got fed up when I got told (whilst in hospital during my first pregnancy) that nothing I was going through was anything like what his ex had gone through with her major illness - it wasn't but I just needed support - same as when my crash section wasn't as bad as the general that his ex had had for her completely unrelated operation) but overall, I accepted that it must have been hard for him for his relationship to break down and then to feel guilty about knocking up his random rebound fling (ie me)

OK...so then it got a couple of years into our relationship. I had severe mental health problems, which must have been hard for him. I don't remember much from those times - I know DD1 spent a lot of time with my mum, and while I was in hospital, she was always with my mum. That isn't to say it wasn't hard for DH though, and he drank because of how hard it was.

Then his brother got seriously ill, so he drank to deal with that. Fair enough, I can't even imagine what it would be like to go through that. I got pregnant again in that time so my mental state was stable, so I didn't mind him going out and drinking all night three times a week, because of the mental strain. We moved across the country to be with his family, and I scrimped and saved to afford the deposit for a new house, and he spent the first months rent on booze, so his parents had to pay that - I'm pretty sure he blamed it on both of us.

Then his brother died. Awful, awful time. I was six months pregnant, but of course I was there for him and his family as much as I could be. He went out drinking nearly every night, but that was fair enough, given what was going on in his life.

I tried to be supportive through the pregnancy and his grieving, but there were times like when his parents were watching DD1 and I couldn't so much as roll over in bed to get my phone (I had SPD that incapacitated me) and he went "to the shop" and stayed out all night. Apparently me being so dependant reminded him too much of his ex, hence why he couldn't stand to be in the house.

Then I had DD2 (of course, a planned section was NOTHING like his exes planned back surgery) and of course he found that hard. So he would be an hour or two late home from work every night, but it was only because he didn't want to come home from work and face all the stressful home stuff without a drink, and anyway, if he came home straight from work he would be angry, and we didn't want that, did we?

Then DD2 was teething and I started work again, but of course I had to look after DD2 because she was breastfed, and so of course DH couldn't look after her. IT was my fault for wanting to work without sorting out my home priorities apparently.

Then I got ill again, so of course he had to drink to cope with that (tbf, I don't remember much of this time, I was very very ill)

Then he got back into serious drinking and cheated on me, so agreed to go to relate and AA. Relate was a waste of time, apart from bringing us closer through mocking the useless woman. AA was going well, I thought, untill I found that when he had been sitting talking to me and the kids, and told me he was googling the nearest meeting for that night in the laptop, he was actually googling a strip club.

Still, we worked it out.

I got ill again, and ended up in hospital. He was very supportive.

Then after that he had to drink to cope with me.

Then he had to drink because he was thinking about his brother.

Now it has turned into drinking because...his parents are old and apparently might die at any minute. They are in their 60's and in good health.

When he is drink, he starts off fun and outgoing, but then turns maudlin. He never actually hits people, but gets kind of aggressive in speech. He is very clever, but uses that to run rings around people on any point they make, even if I know he agrees with them - he just like to debate, even if the other person doesn't want to. He also spends the day after a session shouting at the kids and me for the slightest thing.

AIBU to say that he either needs to see his doctor and get help or stop expecting me to tiptoe round his drinking? He thinks I am being heartless because he only drinks to deal with his life.

My dad is the responsible one from his family, who sorts out everyone elses problems, rescues people from Germany, etc - he is just a bloke who drinks lager every night.

I don't think you can do anything about the drinking or lying or any of it britta. You can only accept him as he is or leave him because how he is behaving is having a very disruptive influence on your family.

I personally think that your dad is an alcoholic as well but if you don't believe your husband is, you'll never believe your DH is. Sounds like your mother has taught you that all men drink and are useless and your job is to love them in spite of their faults. Nice.

Anyway re your DH he's telling you that he needs to drink to cope with life. He's telling you he's an alcoholic. There's always going to be an excuse that will cause him to drink. Bereavement, work, you, the children.... It's not going to stop. He refuses to acknowledge he has a problem so it's basically going to get worse and worse.
There is nothing you can do. You can't help him.

I think the drinking should be a concern though. He makes excuses for his drinking, not a good sign and i'm sure you don't want your children to start drinking at 14! I started getting drunk at 12, in local parks (cliche i know) and i would hate to think of my DD doing that!

What can I do to deal with the excessive drinking and the lying/excusing himself?

go to Al-Anon meetings. they will help you completely disengage from him and his drinking. basically you need to learn that he cannot be trusted with anything at all -- not your emotional wellbeing, not faithfulness, not a single sausage. he might get it right at times, but he'll never be reliable or an actual partner to you. you are part of his addictive cycle, so you're never going to be put first as a human being.

the key realisation you need to make is that drink is more important than you. your H's primary relationship is with booze. you obviously serve some sort of purpose to him i would say you probably help him feel better about himself, and that you keep his life running in ways that make drinking easier but it's not as his primary partner, so start living your life in line with that.

you also need to accept that your children are also not as important to him as booze. if he had to choose, it's likely he would choose booze over kids.

so start saving for your children's therapy bills. they've already worked all this out on a subconscious level, and it's already started killing them from the inside.

also, be sure to keep a detailed list of justifications for your children to read when they are in said therapy sessions, trying to work out why their mother thought their father's comfort was more important than anything else on the face of the earth.

btw: just because your siblings seem normal, doesn't mean they actually are. adult children of alcoholics frequently look normal and happy to those on the outside. the issues are often internal, insidious, and (you are an example of this) perpetuated by life choices that echo the alcoholic family of origin.

No wonder you ended up in hospital with mental problems with an arsehole like him.

Gosh you had a crash section and the first thing he mentions is his ex, most new fathers would help and support there partner in recovering from this major surgery.

He is an alcholic and you are not to blame here

You are wrong. The drink is an issue. You come from a family of people who abuse alcohol, you are married to someone who abuses alcohol, and whatever you think about your father and childhood, it has affected you, because you think that alcohol abuse is acceptable. It is not acceptable to get banned from driving for being over the limit, it is not acceptable to let your children drink at 14, and heckling at weddings is not acceptable. None of the things that your DH does to you are acceptable. The lying is only a small part. Until you accept that, nobody can help you. The only person who can help you is you. Bu you need to want to be helped, and what you actually want here is justification for your acceptance.

Britta, my heart goes out to you.

I was married to an alcoholic, and as already mentioned, I too found help through Alanon.

I had to hit my own rock bottom before I was ready to find that help though....

You need to hit your rock bottom too.....

Stop making excuses for him, stop being a doormat, start putting the focus on you and your DCs.

When he starts behaving badly, get yourselves away from him, take the kids out. If he's too drunk to go out on family trips, take yourself & the kids out anyway. He needs to realise that you are not dependent on him to ensure your happiness - and is it really healthy for the kids to be around all that grumpiness? No it isn't!!

Lots of very sound advice on here - esp. from those who are adult children of alcoholics. Please please, for the sake of your DCs, listen to them. You cannot imagine the harm you are doing to them by carrying on allowing the bad behaviour to continue in the way that you are doing. You are not protecting them. You have a choice, they do not.

Nobody can help him. He will not change unless he decides to and you can't help him decide to.

I do think that some of the professionals you have encountered have treated you badly, and that is awful. But it absolutely does not negate what your H is doing to you. It might seem like you and him against the world and that's very romantic but it is not healthy, I have only recently realised that myself.

Oikopolis your post is heartbreaking and I can only agree with it.

Just one thing, please, please do not start talking about my MH problems being anyone's fault. I have bipolar disorder. It is a chemical problem in the brain that could happen to anyone. The idea that it is something that I, or anyone around me, could have changed is very damaging. The event in my life that probably brought on my symptoms to become more severe was the near death of me and DD1 at her birth. This could not be changed, is not my, DDs, or anyone elses fault.

These facts have taken me a long, long time to come to terms with, and it is only by repeating them that I have been able to gain some control over the flashbacks and the delusions that make me stop my medication. I will always have bipolar, but the medication will keep the symptoms under control if I look after myself. It is not my, or anyone elses fault. I have spent too long fantasising about revenge on the midwives that nearly killed me - I have to let it go. It just happened. Things could have been handled differently, but it is a condition that is part of me, and I can not magic it away. Trying to magic it away is what has got me in hospital nearly every time.

If that really is the case you absolutely should not be attempting to stay in such an absolutely unstable and unpredictable environment. What are you going to do if he attacks you when drunk?

Nobody is going to tell you what you want go hear hun. The questions you're asking have been answered many times here; you just don't want to hear it.

I think that is a bit of a huge leap. People don't just randomly attack people when drunk if they have never been in a fight before.

DH is not unstable, he just drinks too much, which isn't acceptable, but is not rare.

Everyone has periods in their life when they drink too much (I know it has gone on for longer with DH) - when you are a student, for example, and they don't randomly attack people.

You would be more justified (but not actually justified) in saying the same about me - people suffering from psychosis get a much worse press with random acts of violence.

I am 100% sure that he would never, ever hit me or the kids. Other things like cheating I wouldn't be 100% on, because he has form (but I am sure enough), but there is nothing in him that would ever lead to physical aggression.

Equally, you DH has to hit his own rock bottom before he will get help.

Don't threaten him or issue ultimatums over his behaviour - it won't work.

Britta, he is an alcoholic.

People don't just randomly attack people when drunk if they have never been in a fight before.

You cannot be 100% sure he won't randomly attack other people when drunk, or hit you or the kids.

I and quite a few others who have lived with this know what we are talking about.

Agree with stuntgirl........you haven't hit your rock bottom yet so you are not ready to listen

You cannot be 100% sure he won't randomly attack other people when drunk, or hit you or the kids.

Ooops, meant to emphasise the above!

Well you said in your previous posts that he's verbally aggressive when drunk, that he shouts and rants and that he gets 'shorty and nasty'.

It doesn't feel like a very safe environment.

Re the drinking. I agree that a lot of people (me included) have had times in their life when they've drunk. I drank a lot as a student, and so did most of my male friends.
Difference is I can't remember that many instances of them falling down ranting drunk like your DH did last night. And certainly not as young fathers. And not as a crutch to help them cope with life.

Looking at your thread impartially I'm afraid you come across as in denial of your DH's alcoholism.

I don't want to frighten you, but i think you are wrong for the following reason. My "lovely" alcoholic kind of boyfriend who didn't get into fights and one night he raped me and fell unconscious halfway through. I wrote it off as "he was drunk and didn't mean it and is lovely really" then another time he lost it and threw me down the stairs. I actually said the same things as you. He was a binge drinking alcoholic, he sometimes said nasty things but "was not violent or aggressive".

*I had a, not "my"!

Your husband is an alcoholic. Your father had a drinking problem.
You have been affected by it because it has blurred the boundaries of what you feel it is acceptable to expose children to.

I have severe MH problems, lost my brother to a brain tumour, we had miscarriages, lost a child and have had times of extreme poverty and struggle. My DH doesn't drink to cope with his problems because he isn't an alcoholic. I never had times in my life where I drank to excess, you did and have explained it away.
He is an alcoholic, you seem co-dependant at best or at least in denial and I don't think you are grasping what people are saying - you can stay, it's your life but you won't fix him, there is sweet FA you can do. Your children will see this and just as you have go on to have an inapproprite relationship with alcohol or partners that abuse it.
He is displaying all the behaviours of an addict and the only person that can sort them out is him. But he says he doesn't have a problem because he doesn't drink everyday, and other things in your pps, and you are enabling him to carry on because you are objecting to the behaviours and symptoms of addiction but in the same breath saying he's not as bad as anyone is making out. You're telling him he doesn't have to change - your words mean nothing, his addiction is his priority and your actions mean he can carry on without check. And blame you - because it's never the alcoholic's fault they drink.
You aren't getting your opinion validated because to other people it is clear you are wrong. Frankly.

Whatever happens long term he will won't get help to get better until he hits rock bottom, which he won't do because you are the safety net between him and the ground. Wherever you go the advice will be the same. He won't do anything and you won't help him in the only way he needs because you cling to the idea that you can change the behaviour without admitting the problem. Do you not feel that actually you deserve some of the loyalty you are doling out in spades? Are you not important enough to get the support you need instead of dealing with this crap which is so far from 'normal' or 'what men do' you couldn't touch normality with a big stick?

I'm prepared to get shit for this but that really is the truth of it. You keep saying people are wrong but they aren't the one's whose husbands are drunk, lying, cheaters that are blaming them for all of the world's ills.
You can get huge amounts of support here but people won't support anyone in folly on MN. They can support you through the rock bottom and treatment, but more likely finding out he won't change because it's not his priority. We all think we're special in our strife but it's a well trodden path. The only people that can't see it- are you.

i feel sorry for your children. i hope you wake up to reality one day, for their sake if nothing else.

go to Al-Anon, you will quickly find out what i am talking about.

good luck

Britta, I also have bipolar disorder so I completely agree with everything you've said about your illness not being caused by any third party. That is completely true: we have a condition that nothing and no-one caused, and nothing and no-one can cure.

However. However. Most (all?) people with bipolar disorder have triggers - things which are likely to destabilise their mood and lead to a full blown episode. Some of my triggers are chaos/uncertainty, and conflict in interpersonal relationships. Do you know what yours are? Stress is a massive trigger for a lot of bipolar people, but of course "stress" means different things to different people. I think it might be helpful to think back, calmly, and see if you can remember what was happening in the weeks or months leading up to your worst episodes (my memory is appalling, by the way - there are literally years of my life that I have no recollection of). Maybe you stopped taking your meds of your own volition; maybe there was other stuff going on. Or maybe, in some instances, your husband's incredibly demanding behaviour took its toll and your mental health gave way.

Anyway. Whether his behaviour played some role in triggering or exacerbating your episodes or not, I think he has a drink problem. And I say that as someone who regards herself as having an uneasy relationship with alcohol, not as someone who thinks that having a few beers is evidence of raging alcoholism.

Well said, NicNoc.....

What sort of life is this for 2 innocent dc? I just don't get it. Why the hell should any child be subjected to a life with a bad male role model like this? For god's sake OP where is your protective lioness instinct?

Why does your love for this man take precedence over the love for your dc?

What the hell are you doing? Can't you see what a bad influence this man has on your own and your dc's mental and physical well being?

You don't get it because you yourself have been conditioned by a warped view of what is acceptable male behaviour.

So OP you are just as bad as your dh for wanting to fix just a tiny bit of this wholly dysfunctional relationship.