to be completely heartless?

[BrittaPerry]

DH always seems to have an excuse to drink.

When we first met it was that his previous marriage had failed a few months before we met. Fair enough, I was supportive. I got fed up when I got told (whilst in hospital during my first pregnancy) that nothing I was going through was anything like what his ex had gone through with her major illness - it wasn't but I just needed support - same as when my crash section wasn't as bad as the general that his ex had had for her completely unrelated operation) but overall, I accepted that it must have been hard for him for his relationship to break down and then to feel guilty about knocking up his random rebound fling (ie me)

OK...so then it got a couple of years into our relationship. I had severe mental health problems, which must have been hard for him. I don't remember much from those times - I know DD1 spent a lot of time with my mum, and while I was in hospital, she was always with my mum. That isn't to say it wasn't hard for DH though, and he drank because of how hard it was.

Then his brother got seriously ill, so he drank to deal with that. Fair enough, I can't even imagine what it would be like to go through that. I got pregnant again in that time so my mental state was stable, so I didn't mind him going out and drinking all night three times a week, because of the mental strain. We moved across the country to be with his family, and I scrimped and saved to afford the deposit for a new house, and he spent the first months rent on booze, so his parents had to pay that - I'm pretty sure he blamed it on both of us.

Then his brother died. Awful, awful time. I was six months pregnant, but of course I was there for him and his family as much as I could be. He went out drinking nearly every night, but that was fair enough, given what was going on in his life.

I tried to be supportive through the pregnancy and his grieving, but there were times like when his parents were watching DD1 and I couldn't so much as roll over in bed to get my phone (I had SPD that incapacitated me) and he went "to the shop" and stayed out all night. Apparently me being so dependant reminded him too much of his ex, hence why he couldn't stand to be in the house.

Then I had DD2 (of course, a planned section was NOTHING like his exes planned back surgery) and of course he found that hard. So he would be an hour or two late home from work every night, but it was only because he didn't want to come home from work and face all the stressful home stuff without a drink, and anyway, if he came home straight from work he would be angry, and we didn't want that, did we?

Then DD2 was teething and I started work again, but of course I had to look after DD2 because she was breastfed, and so of course DH couldn't look after her. IT was my fault for wanting to work without sorting out my home priorities apparently.

Then I got ill again, so of course he had to drink to cope with that (tbf, I don't remember much of this time, I was very very ill)

Then he got back into serious drinking and cheated on me, so agreed to go to relate and AA. Relate was a waste of time, apart from bringing us closer through mocking the useless woman. AA was going well, I thought, untill I found that when he had been sitting talking to me and the kids, and told me he was googling the nearest meeting for that night in the laptop, he was actually googling a strip club.

Still, we worked it out.

I got ill again, and ended up in hospital. He was very supportive.

Then after that he had to drink to cope with me.

Then he had to drink because he was thinking about his brother.

Now it has turned into drinking because...his parents are old and apparently might die at any minute. They are in their 60's and in good health.

When he is drink, he starts off fun and outgoing, but then turns maudlin. He never actually hits people, but gets kind of aggressive in speech. He is very clever, but uses that to run rings around people on any point they make, even if I know he agrees with them - he just like to debate, even if the other person doesn't want to. He also spends the day after a session shouting at the kids and me for the slightest thing.

AIBU to say that he either needs to see his doctor and get help or stop expecting me to tiptoe round his drinking? He thinks I am being heartless because he only drinks to deal with his life.

Britta loads of good supportive advice on this thread, I'm not going to add much, except that he is an alcoholic and you are presently co-dependant in his relationship with drink.
You can leave him without going back to hometown, and your ILs will probably continue to support you as they love their grandchildren, seem to love you, and almost certainly realise already that their son has a problem which only he can address.

(From a professional )
He has an alcohol problem- the drinking binges then days off is called 'dip mania' and is actually more harmful than constant alcohol abuse in lots of cases.

He needs to go to his local drugs/ alcohol recovery centre and engage with services. He needs a liver function test and help.

You can not help him and are facilitating him to carry on drinking I'm afraid. The only thing you can is take yourself or him away from the situation and protect your children. This is damaging for them. There is a reason most people who suffer with substance misuse have parents who have suffered too.

He is an alcoholic, and you are enabling him. You have had a lot of stress, both of you, but as GarlicFanjo said, why is his lot any worse than yours?
Stop making excuses for him. Put yourself and your child first. I grew up in a house with an alcoholic, and I can tell you, from a child's point of view it's SHIT! This person is now unable to drink through illness, and I know finds it very hard, but they work very hard at it, and are an amazing person now they are sober. Ask me 25 years ago what I thought, and I'd have had the whole lot of us away like a shot.
Do yourself a favour, and stop justifying him. Leave if you need to. It will be hard on your ILs, but you say they are youngish and healthy, they can visit.
Your posts are full of 'this shit thing happened to us, so he drank and blamed it on me.'
What's really so different to 'he hits me, but it's all my fault' or 'he sleeps around because I nag him'?
He's an adult. He needs to start acting like one!

There is nothing you can do to make this situation better. There is literally no advice to give apart from leave him. He is an alcoholic and in denial.

Agree with a lot of what has been written. He has a problem, you are not doing anyone any favours by staying. Least of all your dds. From what you have said he is not lovely when he is sober and your relationship is shit generally even without the drinking.

I don't know much about alcoholism, but I am aware that there is usually a complicated dynamic where other family members unintentionally fuel the problem. That's not the same as it being someone's 'fault', however.

I wonder if your lack of self-confidence about your own mental health is a significant part of the difficulty here, and his alcoholism serves the rather dark function of fuelling your lack of confidence, IYSWIM. In other words, symbiotic dysfunction of some kind on both sides.

I don't think there are any easy answers here. I am inclined to think that it is well beyond MN.

I think one temporary measure might be for you to move DH out and effectively move his parents in while you work out what's best for you and the kids. Unless he seeks help, and you address why you allowed him to be horrible to you in his darker moments, then this is just an even nastier problem brewing for the future IMO.

I've changed my name to write this and I've not read every post in enormous detail but get the general gist of whats written.
Seven years ago our relationship was falling to pieces not alcohol but something equally significant I became severely depressed and attempted suicide because of my husbands behaviour. All my friends told me to leave him but I didn't because despite of all he was doing I loved him and I had two children who loved him. I too was a doormat. Eventually nearly all my friends deserted me because i wouldn't take their advise.
Now we've worked it out my husband received help I stopped being a doormat I actually found a house on my own and moved into it I told him he could only come with me if he changed and stopped what he was doing I took charge of my life and laid down the rules what I was prepared to put up with what I wasn't. I discovered much to my surprise that I could live without him; the world didn't come to an end and he discovered that he loved me and that the world did come to an end without me. He stopped his unacceptable behaviour and changed so did I, Im now financially independent my confidence has returned and Iwont put up with crap anymore.
Its you relationship you must do whats best for you only you can make that decision don't let others influence. But you need to sort yourself out attend Al Anon talk to them no one will help them like they will.
Your DH will only stop drinking if he wants too not you or his parents or anyone else. My husband only stopped his unacceptable behaviour because he wanted too his friends parents and myself had told him to stop but one day he realised that he wanted to save our relationship more than anything else it is the same for alcoholics.

Today we are one of the happiest families you will ever meet we've moved have new friends none who have any ides about what happened in our past all would be gob smacked of they knew. I am not the person I was seven years ago I've changed but all for the better and I can honestly say I'm happier than I've ever been.

how much can you take of this? can you go on? do you want to?

how would you organise your life without him? is it practicable?

I can't add more the the issue of alcohol than what's been written on here, but brittaperry the alcohol is not the only issue here, but how his problem is affecting you... plenty of alcoholics don't hurt the people they love, alcohol doesn't validate frankly cruel and unreasonable behaviour.

He compared your hard times with his ex's and told you hers were worse? WHAT?
He allowed you to feel guilty for not being his ex?
He blames you for making him drink?
He blames you and the kids for MAKING him?
You support him (enable whatever) and you get little in return, not what you should be getting from a loving partner regardless of any dependency on any substance. He's had an affair, he visits strip clubs... I assume this doesn't make you happy?

Why are you with him? What are you getting from this? And please don't say he's nice, he's clearly not. Please don't blame your genuine illness, because he SHOULD support the woman he loves throughout that, without the guilt trips. Don't worry about his parents, they can still be grandparents without you remaining in this situation.

You need to feel cherished, not a burden. Drink or no drink, the mental abuse, the constant twisting of knives, the guilt trips... you do not deserve that, and the only thing you can do to change things is to remove HIM from the situation, either by leaving him, or kicking him out. Ideally, he'll then choose to get help and become the person you say he is deep down, but you have no influence over that.

Just want to add you are NOT causing him problems by being ill, it's not your fault. I have suffered from MH problems all my adult life, including threatening my ex with a knife () but no-one I have ever been in a relationship has ever been reliant on alcohol.

I'm not saying he hasn't been through difficult times, but to be honest who hasn't? I thin even if his life was exactly as he wanted it he would still drink, he is alcohol dependant. You are letting him get away with his behaviour & until you stop enabling him nothing is going to change.

I grew up with drunk parents & it was horrible, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Which does he love more, his family or drink?

I'm really sorry you are having such difficulties and I realise it must be very distressing for you. And you have had an awful lot on your plate to deal with.

However I feel that both you and your partner are in denial as to the extent of your difficulties and the part you both play in them [understanding of course that you have no control over DPs drinking or behaviour, you can only change how you react to it].

I was struck by your saying that both you and DP united in mocking your "useless" Relate counsellor. I wonder what that was all about. Was she really useless or was she saying things neither of you could bear to hear or think about? Honestly.

But best of luck OP. There is some good advice and support here on this thread. I hope you can make use of some of it.

and we have a lovely relationship.
No you don't. Not by any definition.

If you left him (and frankly it should be him leaving) you don't have to move away. If your life is where you are now then you can stay there.

If every thread you start about your relationship gets the advice to leave him, then why can't you listen?

My mum was an alcoholic (now recovered) so I speak with a little bit of experience.

1. you are not making him drink. My mum was an alcoholic for about 10ish years (the secrecy makes it difficult to know) and my father and I had a nightmare dealing with her. She didn't drive us to drink! Nor do we use her former alcoholism as a stick to beat her with. How cruel of your husband to blame you, as if somehow you are being ill on purpose.

2. you can't help an alcoholic until they recognise they need the help. They are usually at rock bottom by that time (my mother had liver failure and was told she would die within a week). She didn't!

3. I was told by a doctor on my mother's ward that alcoholism isn't about the volume of booze, it's about the reliance on alcohol. It doesn't really matter whether you drink half a bottle of vodka or two bottles (within reason), it's about the fact that you can't get through the day, week, hour even without the drink to support you.

4. I have no answer for you in terms of how to cope. I would never say "leave him" as I don't know enough about your situation from your posts. What I can tell you is that you need to increase your self-confidence, don't let him blame you, don't let you blame yourself. Grit your teeth as its going to get worse before it gets better (assuming that it will that is) and don't ever believe that there is no sensible way out. There always is, you might just not want to accept it.

I feel for you, I really do.

I don't actually think he is as bad as you are saying. My Dad always drank too much - it didn't really affect us in any way. He drinks every night, but it isn't really an issue. Apparently he used to do it in the pub, and annoyed my mum massively, but none of us remember that - we just remember the odd party with the whole brass band, him getting banned from driving or from the band for short periods (and so being in the house more to do fun stuff with us because he couldn't work if he couldn't drive) and that cans of lager were, and still are, bought more often than milk, but it really isn't a big thing in our relationship with him, or even in his personality. DH is right in a way, that I always did just think that beer is part of what men do. He would no more drink wine (imagine a builder from manchester drinking wine!) than he would not have a beer.

I used to drink much more than DH does as well.

The drinking in itself isn't the issue - it is the endless excuses and lying about it. Why not just say "I fancy a couple of beers, is it ok if I nip to the pub?" rather than these excuses? Then, if he does get too drunk, just a "sorry, I didn't mean to get that drunk" would do if it wasn't that often.

He does drink too much, but it is the behaviour that is the issue. There is a difference between a couple of drinks with me, in front of the tv, and this "oh, I have to drink because of my dad - he could drop dead at any minute and it is really hard to cope woth" and then disapeering off the the pub, or running a pub quiz and then "having" to stay out till past midnight because he was partially paid in beer.

I posted about a related thing a few days ago and got told that I was BU for cramping his style, and that I should let him run more pub quizzes and drink afterwards.

The relate councillor was useless - we were on benefits at the time and she took £100 worth of sessions to decide to even let us see her because I was having MH treatment and she was worried she might provoke me. I was late a couple of times and she told me off more than DH did (he was being much worse then)

It wasn't that he was having an affair, he "only" cheated on me once, and even then it was a snog - it was the lying about that that upset me, and the trying to blame it on me. The Relate councillor didn't get why I was upset and kept trying to claim that I was paranoid. She kept telling me that I couldn't bring DH's drinking into it because at the time he was going to AA. Then she told me that I needed to put my kids first when I told her that they went to nursery part time despit me being off work for my illness, and that I should be doing more around the house because DH was working, and that I should know which clothes belonged to which child and couldn't expect DH to know (we were talking about sorting washing - the DDs wear very similar clothes and aren't drastically different sizes - I was saying that DH was BU expecting me to do all the clothes sorting just because he claimed that he had no idea which clothes belong to which DD without looking at the age label) Sigh.

But then, two MH nurses came round to the house this year and basically said the same thing - that the house was a tip and that it was my responsibility, that I shouldn't look for work if I couldn't deal with my home responsibilities, that I should feel lucky to have a man that doesn't "make" me go out to work, etc, so maybe I am just putting my slant on things.

My mum just says that there is no point relying on a man for anything, that you can't change them and that all men are the same anyway, you just have to love them despite their faults.

But we really have sorted all that out now, he does most of the housework, we take turns at doing the rubbish jobs with the kids (getting up early etc) and we do plenty of good things. The DDs are overjoyed every night when he comes home from work, and DD1 just rolls her eyes most of the times when he is grumpy.

I just wish he would stop making excuses to drink.

Last night he got falling down, ranting drunk (I had to apologise for him a few times) but again, it was because he is mourning his brother and me objecting to that is awful of me.

it's lovely to be wrapped up with the drama and the ups and downs and to be so passionately focused on making him better, but you know what, you're not the important one here. neither is he. your children are the ones who actually count here.

if you want to see what your children are going to suffer as they grow up, go to an Al-Anon meeting and listen to the adult children of alcoholics talk about their lives.

my father sounds a lot like your husband. my mother sounds a lot like you. happy home at times, mother bending over backwards for us, dad never quite present but indulgent when he was - and we ignored or placated him when we needed to, rolling our eyes with ironic understanding. between them they fucked up my sister and i in ways they will never have to understand. we carry that all alone.

nothing kills a daughter, in particular, more than learning that a man's comfort is more important than her integrity and self-respect. and that's your legacy to your child.

i'll say it again, your comfort and your love for your husband IS NOT the most important thing here. you need to start learning that, so that your children don't have to pay for your mistakes.

"nothing kills a daughter, in particular, more than learning that a man's comfort is more important than her integrity and self-respect. and that's your legacy to your child."

And this is your mother's legacy to you as well, OP. You say you had an alcohol-dependent father - look where it's landed you. You think drinking too much isn't an issue. You make endless excuses for it, including that you used to drink too much yourself.

Do you want your children to end up in exactly the same type of relationship as you are in, with or without the MH problems?

Britta I'm really sorry you're going through this. He sounds very selfish. What leaped out at me was the way he keeps belittling your pain - and comparing it to his ex? That's fucked up. It seems very melodramatic. It reminds me of an old school friend who would always demand attention whenever somebody else was in crisis. It would turn into her crisis. Eg when a friends mum died she was devastated (despite never having met said mother!) and needed support. She fed off anything that could get her attention and sympathy. Does that make sense?

You seem to keep blaming yourself. He's really ground you down sweetie :(

OP. You sound like you are stuck in a marriage that is just the same as my first. You could be me 12 years ago.

An alcoholic always finds an excuse to drink, somebody or something to blame. Because to admit they choose to drink for no good reason means admitting they are an alcoholic.

I left my ex husband for 2 main reasons. Firstly because not being able to trust him to pop to the corner shop for fags and a tv magazine and actually come home again, not knowing if he would come home after work on payday, and not knowing if he would spend the rent money on booze, had shot my nerves to pieces.
Secondly, over my dead body was my DD going to grow up thinking our sort of relationship was normal or acceptable. She needed me to be a good role model for the sake of her future relationships.

Oh and just to add, my DH (2nd husband) has experience many tragedies in his life, including his dad having a heart attack and his sister dying 3 years ago, but despite not being T total he has never turned to drink to drown his sorrows.
What your DH is doing is not normal for normal people, only alcoholics. And you cannot help him or save him, his can only do that for himself if he really truly wants to do it for himself, not you or anybody else.

Brittany two things.

All men are not the same pet, my DH is not like this, nor my dad, nor many other men I know. You are making excuses for him because you are scared to do anything else.

The relate counsellor was not only wrong but IMO incompetent. Do not base decisions on her.

Oh and a third - I don't think it's a choice between keeping him and losing his parents, I think you might find they are more supportive than you think.

But you need to be away from him for the kids sake, and he needs to decide he will stop drinking, you can't do it for him.

Good luck xx

You are absolutely not heartless. On the other hand, he is not showing you any empathy or sympathy so that term is more applicable to him. He is an alcoholic and he is dragging you down. And that is not good for your children. His excuses for drinking are just that; excuses. The things he has gone through are no worse than anyone else has had to go through and the one about his parents being old is just nonsense, as is the one he is spinning you about all working class men drinking. I could just about excuse the alcholism but, drink or no drink, he just doesn't sound very nice in the way he constantly undermines you. I know it is hard, but I would also advise leaving.

I grew up with an alcoholic mother. It was horrible, scary and made me not want to come home at night. She would stay up waiting for me to come then verbally and sometimes physically abuse me. Next day, she would never remember/mention it.
I now have issues with alcohol because of it. I am actively trying to control them so that my DD never has to go through what i went through.
It really damages you growing up in a house with a heavy drinker. Just thought you should know.

Like I say though, I grew up in a house with a heavy drinker - he was always very much functioning, and it never caused us any trouble (well, apart from the driving ban, but that didn't really affect us in any way) and I am the only one of us that had any mental health issues - the other two are successful and well adjusted, and my MH issues seem to have a genetic link to my mum's side of the family. So it isn't the drink, it is the abuse that makes a parent abusive.

DH drinks too much, but that isn't the issue here. My issue is the daft excuses, and the fact that he seems to think that me questioning them is heartless.

I feel like a bit of a revolutionary even objecting to him going to the pub - our town stopped in the 1970's - there are still many, many people who will cry at the mention of Thatcher or mining - so the working men's clubs are full of men avoiding their wives and the health visitors etc will ask to speak to me even if DH is the one that answers the phone. The only concession to time having passed is the fact that there are so many single mums and that the two local MPs are women.

OK. I am not going to leave him. Whether you think that is because I am so oppressed or whatever is up to you , but thanks for the concern - I do appreciate it.

What can I do to deal with the excessive drinking and the lying/excusing himself?

I should add that, while the town I grew up in isn't so bad, my family is full of people who drink too much - me and my sisters all started getting drunk at around 14, one of my uncles heckled my wedding, another was accidentally involved in a bank robbery because he thought it was a porn film, an auntie keeps dead cats in her freezer, etc - I drink more in my weekends over there than I do in my entire life over here, so leaving DH wouldn't exactly mean me moving back into a refined family situation