to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

Mirry, they strt earning after 5/6 years of medical school. Starting at 24k.

The NHS pension scheme met all its costs and pumped £2 billion pounds excess income into the economy each year. Peak demand will be in approx 2015 I believe and costs will still be met easily. It is not a doctor pension, it is an NHS pension and the same one nurses, porters and paramedics took action over.

Contributions are income banded. Top earning employees will pay 14.5% - similarly earning civil servants pay 7.something and MPs have refused to negotiate any change to their pension. GPs pay such a huge amount as they pay both employee and employer contributions. Part time workers pay contributions on the amount they would earn if full time, not what they actually earn - how is that fair?

Similarly penalising to carers, mothers (and LTFT fathers!) and the lower paid is the shift from final salary to career average pensions. This is not about saving the economy because the NHS pension scheme actually positively benefits it. This is about a conservative, misogynist agenda of hatred for welfare provision, the state and women being in the workplace. Over 2/3 of budget cuts predominantly affect women and those on low incomes and this is yet anther one.

Mirry they get no pay until their foundation year(when they are qualified).. so they have 5 years of degree with no funding. The NHS pays tuition fees for nurses and other allied professions but only 5th year fees for med students. My DD1 doing medicine is worse off than her sister who is doing Nursing:(

Never understood the logic of that one....

Is it an allegation in the same way as gold plated pensions then? I was basing it on what I knew from friends/relations didn't realise it was an allegation as such.

Medusa

Medicine is a 6 year degree in some medical schools, a 5 year degree in others - it depends how the course is structured. For my DS, it's 6 years and medical students can choose to do an extra year at medical school to study an area of research/science which interests them. So potentially 7 years at uni before F1 year.

It's a long haul, and it's tough.

EndoplasmicReticulum
The general consensus seemed to be that teachers should "suck it up" when they went on strike about pensions.
That's because people don't see teachers as anything more than free childcare

Yes, it's a long haul but with immense rewards at the end

its a long haul, with a starting salary the same as some nurses they work with, and shittier hours than a lot of nurses they work with, and more responsibility and stress and scope for litigation..

Why do they do it if they get the same pay as nurses?

well exactly! a lot of doctors are ex HCAs, if medicine is made much more unappealing they'll just do nurse training wont they? I mean why bother if after YEARS of slog there aren't some long term rewards?

I think (hope) that doctors are in it for more than the salary they're paid, which is quite good anyway. I do think that GPs in particular are in danger of losing the respect of the public, no matter what other posters say.

Well even if they lose the respect of the public what difference does it make?

Those who don't approve can choose to vote with their feet

Where on earth is the research to suggest that a lot of doctors are ex HCA?!!?!?!?!? I find that very difficult to believe to be frank, given the competition for medicine!

Yes there are places for graduate medicine, but that is even more competitive than standard entry and I don't think the NHS is THAT bursting with HCA who have the academic qualifications to jump into medicine ..

Nursing and Medicine are very different....both in the depth of study and core skills needed . Having children training in both professions it is pretty clear that my med student daughter is doing the more difficult course...

yeah but they are still people outside work, and there are other ways to work in healthcare with less of the downsides of doing medicine, its a huge sacrafice, do you know any junior doctors or partners of junior doctors? they often have to relocate every 6 months, and have to move all over the country, considering they are older than the average new graduate by then a lot are in relationships or have families and its a bit shitty, they have to consider their families too, is it worth it?

I'm a HCA, I work with med students who do HCAing on the bank, have seen loads of colleagues take the gamsat and go off to med school, lots of science grads interested in going on to medicine do HCAing while studing for the gamsat

.

but why would anyone reasearch it medusa?

HCAing is very flexible so it fits in well for students working towards medicine, and is easy to get into for people thinking about medicine, also cant hurt to have some hospital experience, why would you doubt it?

Mirry, the earnings are high, I am not denying that, but they also have a ceiling that doesn't exist in other (non public sector) industries.... effectively capping the earning potential of a group of individuals who, had they chosen a different career, would have had the potential to earn truly "immense rewards". These are very bright, very driven people........... why all the animus towards people earning a high wage (80, 90, 100k, whatever) because they have the title "Dr"? I think that just makes them an easy target to attack, Daily Fail style.
Their academic peer group outside the medical profession are able to earn "sky's the limit" salaries (without the legal responsibility Dr's face) - these very high earners in other professions will be buying themselves comfortable pensions too (and with more control of their pension assets), without their pension contributions being syphoned off to the treasury (as happens with the NHS fund surplus to the tune of £2bn a year).

The Government will of course be delighted to see public sector workers at the higher end of the earnings range being slagged off - it sugars the pill for others who are also under attack.
Divide and Rule.

I don't think the relocation argument is exclusive to doctors. University academics have the same problem. They have also trained for 7 plus years, are usually employed on short term contracts and have to go where the work is. I do have sympathy for medics but they aren't a special case in terms of pay and job availability.

but they ARE a special case because that starts later than for other grads who can start that process at 20 or 21 after only 3 years! they have to START that whole faff later
and they ARE a special case compaired to other health care grads who get bursaries etc

SCOTCHandWRY the title DR is a courtesy title for most medics who would be the first to admit it. The only people who have EARNED the title Dr by examination are those with a PhD, DPhil or MD.

Apart from the fact that they save lives........no I guess they aren't special terms of pay

affect women and those on low incomes and this is yet anther one.

Yes that's true all those part time usually female GP's on £50k a year are being hit the hardest. Audi and BMW must be shitting themselves, only replacing the one car this year Dr ?

I don't understand the attitude of doctors striking when it was no doubt a high percentage of those Doctors who democratically voted conservative and have got what they voted for.

It would be sensible to remove their national bargaining rights and let the local health authorities deal with salaries locally.