to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

So if I understand rightly, is the major gripe that private sector workers have with NHS pensions because employer contributions come from the 'public purse'?

If so, couldn't you say the same for private sectors with the tax relief available on private pension contributions (obviously just for high tax rate payers).

BTW I didn't mean to offend by talking about BTL in private sector. The only people I know with BTL are business people. I know a few doctors who let their homes out but its because they are renting property in other areas when jobs have shifted.

The 2008 pension scheme has no automatic lump sum though you can exchange part of your yearly pension to get one. The amount of pension depends on years in the scheme and is on a 1/60 scale. So at 65 presuming 40 years service if full time it would be 40/60 of average salary but no lump sum. For part time work it would obviously be less. Retiring at less than 65 means benefits significantly reduced which is why I stayed in the 1995 scheme - so I can retire at 60. Would get £10,000 a year less if I was on 2008 scheme and retired at 60 though would get more if I retired at 65.

You know, I wasn't going to post on this thread again as I really am in support of the doctors' action and feel like I have made this point a bazillion times, but...

snoozymum I don't know what other people are 'offended' by, but I am very offended by your comments about research scientists above. You don't get it, do you?! Doctors are not exceptional.

I have a former partner whose research was on cardiac disease. Er, yeah, I think that matters. A friend's sister is involved in what she hopes will be a novel and effective treatment for renal cancer. People are dying waiting for that. So no, it's not just about 'starting an experiment again' and sitting in a cushy lab. How fucking rude. If you think research is cushy, maybe you just don't work hard enough.

It's deeply ironic that a few posts later you say that people shouldn't bash public sector workers - you do know most research scientists work at universities and are therefore publicly funded, right....

Revolting, I know lots of people are waiting for research to provide cures for people and in that way it is a very worthwhile job. But no I cannot compare what I did with the medics who worked in the same dept. I had the stress of finding my own funding (from private sources not HEFCE funding), publishing, teaching etc... but it was nowhere near the same level of stress that someone dealing with actual real life or death situations deals with.

Snoozymum not all doctors are dealing with life and death situations as you call them. I agree with you revoltingpeasant, there's far too much disrespect for other occupations from most doctors (and doctors wives) on this thread.
Doctors are not special people, but unfortunately, from the beginning of their training they are told that they are and some believe the hype. I respect some of the doctors who have posted on this thread but the others..............

Snoozymum...my dh is a clinical scientist. He works out the correct doses of radiation to treat people with cancer and ensures it reaches the correct area and not fry the healthy tissue! If he gets it wrong people's tumours aren't treated correctly and they won't stand a chance of getting better. He doesn't sit in a lab growing cells for fun hmm

So it is fairly life or death!

Snoozy, thanks for the moderate tone of your reply.

However, I still disagree.

There are different stresses in different professions and the fact that someone does not have to deal with life or death situations does not mean that they are not coming under serious stress some other way.

For example - and this is going to risk outting me - my last job was at a major Russell Group uni. Whilst I was there the VC decided to slash the biomedical scientists' budget by nearly 20% and many lost their jobs.

Many researchers work on crappy temp contracts for year after year with virtually zilcho job security, few benefits, etc. It is one of the most casualized professions.

Does your consultant DH spend his late 30s worrying that in 3 months he may not have a job? Is he able to take sick leave/ annual leave without worrying that it may impact on the reference he will shortly need when he ups and takes his family 200 miles away for the next contract?

My point still is, different jobs have very demanding T&C in different ways. No, researchers don't deal with life or death directly. But IME they are very high qualified, they do work very long hours, and with frightful levels of security. Drs have their own stresses but are largely well-paid and secure in their jobs.

I'm going to stop posting now, though, because I don't think you or some of the other drs/ drs' wives on this thread get it or care. It is precisely this level of 'But I'm a doctor, I'm different' attitude which gets up my nose when dealing with some drs IRL and which seems so entrenched on this thread.

Well put revolting!

Probably a bit less Babybarrister as will be average salary but still decent.

This isn't just about doctors, it's about showing support for all NHS workers. Yes doctors will pay in more for less and MPs and senior civil servants won't but we'll survive. I won't be working until 68, I'll go at 60 but will still get a decent although reduced sum. Some of my lower paid colleagues in the NHS will lose out though and I want to show my support for them. And if it hadn't been for the Health and Social Care Bill which doctors feel much more strongly about than their pensions, but it's illegal to strike about that, we might not have voted to go on strike. Although officially about pensions, this industrial action is about so much more.

Songy, thanks for achnowledging that your pension is a decent one but we've all been told by the BMA, the media and many, many doctors themselves that this dispute is about doctors' pensions, their retirement age and thier increased pension contributions. None of the news items i've read have been about any other NHS workers

Of course that's the official line, we can't officially go on strike about something that isn't about our particular terms and conditions. But the reforms are the same for all NHS workers - the increased contributions and increased age of retirement affects us all and so many, many doctors do feel that we're all in this together. In addition it's a way of sticking two fingers up to the government and as I said previously the bad feeling is mostly not to do with pensions but this is the only way we can protest about anything. Of course you won't read about this in the news as the current spin is about doctor bashing. And there are plenty out there worth bashing but many, many more that aren't.

mirry2

Its been said many times already on this thread it is the SAME pension scheme. The reason for doctors and other NHS staff taking action separately is because they are in different unions.
The majority of NHS staff are absolutely supporting each other in this, regardless of professional background.

Revolting, I understand the conditions of a scientist well, having been pushed out following pregnancy after years of competing for grants but I also realise the worth of my occupation - I cannot compare it with something like medicine, nursing, policing etc and give it equal value.

In terms of job security, DH could well be made redundant soon due to budget cuts. His job security is not that much greater than anyone else's. He's lost some nurses from his team recently - not much job security for them either. The people in the NHS do a great job.

So, basically 27 pages and nobody has yet managed to answer the question as to why public sectors shouldn't have their t's and c's and pensions etc altered every couple of years just like private sector without hinting at them being generally more special.

Thats very sad but not really unexpected.

And so surely it goes on - see you perhaps on page 64.....

I think public sector pension provision is different due to the nature of the as a frontline healthcare support worker,for example, I cannot imagine sustaining this amount of nightshift at 50, and I am already 38 with 3 kids and a second job.

I've friends who are nurses and police officers and doctor's and their job is very physical and at time heart thumpingly stressful. My police woman friend laughs at the idea of police the toughest parts of Glasgow in her fifties / sixties.

But that said my husband runs his own business and his income halved in a year a few years ago, we are still paying back debt incurred in that year and will be for many future years. The only provision we have for our retirement is my 'gold plated' public sector pension and I will bloody well fight for it.

Ciccolina - public sector pensions have traditionally been good. This has been a reason for some people to pick the jobs that they have, despite lower pay in the public sector. This has also been of benefit to the employing agencies, as once people are established in a final salary scheme they tend to be reluctant to leave, even if they could get much more money elsewhere.

I dont think that people working in the private sector should have 'their t's and c's and pensions etc altered every couple of years' either, but then I don't know anyone who has had their T+C changed that often either. I also know a lot of people in the private sector who remain on final salary schemes (and paying a lower percentage of income then the higher earning NHS staff will be after the changes).

Revolting, i think I've found a way of saying what I was trying to say in a less offensive manner. I started making my comments in defense to people saying doctors were overpaid. So if we imagine a lab full of scientists on payscale k33-38. Amongst these is a clinical fellow on similar salary working the scientific version of a 9-5 job, takes papers home to read, supervises others etc.. so no difference between this fellow and other research fellows. Except he also has clinical commitments and does a weekend of clinical work so 48 hours of clinical work. Should this fellow still be getting the same pay as the other scientists?

Snoozymum how much sleep is this fictitious scientist getting during the week, bearing in mind he isn't getting any over the weekend?

Our terms and c

Oops, damn iPhone! Our terms and conditions do change regularly, our pay has been frozen for the last 3 years, we are not getting the incremental pay within our salary scales ( although pay increases before this was the well below inflation 1.2%) In addition pension contributions have gone up from 6% to 10.9% already and national insurance for all has gone up. So for the last three years or more pay has been steadily reducing. And we've sucked it up until now. So no one is saying terms and conditions shouldn't change. But they should be negotiated and equitable amongst all public sector workers.

Mirry, I suppose that would depend whether s/he'd prepared for the presentation he had to give lol.

songy, don't forget increases in MDU fees, GMC registration and Dh has to pay a ridiculous proportion of his salary for parking (1% of salary on 1 site, and pay per use at the other site), although I realise that everyone pays to park at work.

Ciccolina those in the private sector have the opportunity to join a union to fight for their T & C. That's why the doctors are in a powerful position. Good luck to them.

echt Tue 05-Jun-12 21:16:19
Ciccolina those in the private sector have the opportunity to join a union to fight for their T & C.

AGAIN. Do you really think that me and my two colleagues joining a union against my boss is really going to help me? You live in la la land.

Unions aren't a lot of good and aren't accessible for an enormous number of private sector workers.

Not to mention there have been a lot of cases recently were private sector unions have actually advised workers to accept changes in T&Cs to preserve jobs and skills in the long run. The car manufacturing sector springs to mind. They had the foresight to actually acknowledge market conditions and changes in the world.

The public sector seems to think they are immune to this. Its not a race to the bottom. Its about giving the best to the most people overall in the long run, in difficult circumstances. And thats what it comes down to.

I personally think public sector pensions should just be abolished given the way this is going. That way, it would just be about pay and the two sectors would be directly comparable and transparent. Rewards for public sector work could just be given in pay packets and everyone would know where they stood.