to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

Footballfriend - what do you mean by 'harder'? I might find the job of medical registrar fairly easy (as, like doctors, I am in the top 1% of the cleverclogs population but but would find some other jobs really 'hard'.

Mirry2 - you were being specific about pensions? I had understood the way you worded it that it was drs in general. It's terrible about the pensions, though. About 10 years back wasn't there something with people paying into a pension scheme which then collapsed (was it Legal & General?). I remember many left devastated by this and there was more support (only recently and partially solved). So there was support for people contributing to a private scheme who then got stuffed but not for drs because they get paid too well anyway. Seems z big mean spirited and ideologically driven.

ok I see

But the drs/nhs scheme pensions are performing ok as I understand it, its just that the govt have chosen to ask for increased contributions and the extra will go to the treasury which is the bit that is unfair

And that they can't be drawn until later which is also a bit unfair as most Drs get burnout or are not at the top of their game by 60/65

I'm getting all confused and I'm on my mobile and too difficult to cut abc paste. It was Justchecking who said earlier that her job wasuch harder than a med reg. So I was curious to know what job in the medical profession (talks of beds etc) is paid less but is harder.

Footballfriendsay- surely there's nothing wrong with ideological drivers focused on helping out the poorer sections of our society. Are you saying that it's mean spirited not to give the same helping hand to doctors? I think the main difference is that doctors (retired or not) will never have to worry about paying their utility bills where as someone on a modest pension or wage will always need to budget for necessities

Mirry - not at all, I meant iit would be mean spirited to be blinkered because drs get paid more.

Football..its impossible on a mobile isn't it?

I said I thought my job was as hard / harder than bed manager/ specialist nurse practitioner on at nights with us to help us out... their pay is similar but they don't do as many shifts and can refer all problems to me for me to then deal with.

I am a med reg and I am not saying I deserve more money, but was just responding to bubbles about how drs pay is not in line with other nhs staff of similar kind. So I get similar type pay[maybe a bit more]but work more and have to deal with any of the stuff they can't do ,as well as the junior drs problems and my own stuff with the most unwell pts etc.

It is total bullshit to say doctors will never have to worry about paying the bills! My dad really struggled with a family of six on one wage when thatcher and major fucked up the country! He is very well off now we have all left and my mum is working but things will not be as good as they were for him for young doctors now.

Ah, in complete agreement there Justchecking.

Offred, I'm talking about doctors who are working now and paying in to their pension scheme or about to draw their pension. ie any doctor earning upward of £80000 with a pension of three times salary.

Snoozymum...my dh is a clinical scientist. He works out the correct doses of radiation to treat people with cancer and ensures it reaches the correct area and not fry the healthy tissue! If he gets it wrong people's tumours aren't treated correctly and they won't stand a chance of getting better. He doesn't sit in a lab growing cells for fun

Yes, doctors get paid well though not quite the amounts people think. Yes, the proposed changes will still lead to a decent pension. However, the changes should not be restricted to the NHS. Other professions on similar salaries e.g. MPs and senior civil servants will have to pay in significantly less (7% compared with 14.5% for hospital doctors and higher for GPs who have to also pay employer contributions). If they were also having to make equivalent increased contributions then perhaps perceptions would be different and doctors would be more likely to say 'ok then, fair enough'

In addition this is not just about doctors. The industrial action (it is not a strike) is also so we can support our fellow NHS workers who are on lower salaries but also having to make significantly higher contributions who will lose out with the proposed changes.

Mirry

"any doctor earning upward of £80000 with a pension of three times salary."

A pension of 3 times salary? A lot of them about are there. In that case can I retire now please

I think that the use of the word doctor in thsi thread is obscuring the fact that in is an NHS pension, which applies to NHS staff, regardless of profession.

I asked earlier whether people thought that a nurse consultant or a non medic in senior management were entitled to thier pensions, because with the same final salary as a consultant, and probably more time to accrue years they wont be getting any less.
It might be politically convenient to go on about greedy doctors, but while on average they are well paid, they are not getting paid anymore (or getting any different pension) than anyone else with a comparable role.

I only wish that I never had to worry about paying the utility bills!

I have just been appointed as a consultant and I am thankful that the increase in my salary will mean some disposable income after paying for childcare. I will still not earn massive amounts (though not working ft admittedly). There is massive variation in pay for doctors depending upon GP vs hospital and then specialty and possibility or not of private practice not to mention ft vs pt. I am more than happy with the choices I made though I wish it was recognised that the variation exists and many of us are not on 6 figure salaries!

However, as I said before my main worry is not the increased financial contribution per se, although I have issue with the lack of ring-fencing of funds and the better deal that other similarly paid civil servants will get, but with the increased retirement age.

Arthurandgeorge congratulations on your promotion I feel exactly the same as you. I have an uncle that retired from the police force at 55 on a full pension and my fil from headteaching in his 50s, they are both still in very good health and could have worked for considerably longer. I do not think its right that all tax payers are funding these long retirements. However I am very fearful for those people that cannot carry on working well into their 60s due to ill health or reduced mental capacity. Fortunately my dh is excelling in his private sector job which comes with more benefits that I could even dream of and hopefully this will give us the opportunity to save for our retirements!

If poor health or reduced mental capacity affects their ability to work they can be medically retired, just as as they are today. Not every doctor becomes incapable once they hit 65 you know. I agree some may be affected with long term conditions like the rest of the population and some jobs may involve more stress and strain than others, but not all doctors have particularly stressful specialities.

I'm not sure whether it applies to doctors but I think that some NHS employees can retire at 60, wait a month and then return (maybe on 4 day week?) and continue to draw their pension while continuing to pay into the same NHS pension scheme.

babybarrister has asked been asking some pointed questions which are being ignored.
I think the main probelm throughout this thread is the lack of transparency about doctors' pensions. Also, it is a mystery to me as to what happens to the practice ownership or partnership interests of a Gp? I've always understood they buy the practice off the NHS at preferential rates. Do they sell their share back to the NHS when they retire? How much can they make on the deal and is this another nice little earner?

I'm still in the 1995 pension which is a final salary pension allowing retirement at 60. The 2008 pension is an average salary pension and retirement age is 65 with significantly reduced benefits with retirement before this.

I'm staggered at the quote of a £350,000 lump sum - the lump sum is 2.5 times your pension normally so more likely to be in the £100 - £150,000 range for someone retiring now - still pretty generous admittedly...

So for someone on £100,000 in the 2008 scheme it would depend on what their average salary was.

I support the doctors. The changes, as with teachers, are ideological and not financial in motive.

And I never saw anyone proposing raising public sector salaries when they were lower than private sector salaries, so why should public sector pensions decrease just because private sector pensions are fucked?

Real world isn't on politicians' minds. Corporation tax has been lowered, as has the highest tax rate; bonuses are continuing unabated. A friend of mine works in the City. I saw her last week and she told me about how she deserves her huge bonuses because her job isn't 9 to 5 and sometimes she's at work till 7. I restrained myself from pointing out that my job (leadership-scale paid teacher) isn't 9 to 3.30, as so many think; including meetings, after-school revision and meeting with parents, I rarely get home before 5 and that I am often up until midnight marking/ planning/ dealing with emails (leaving out the 5-8pm time with son before bed). So that would make my job 8.30am-9pm.

Yet somehow financial workers and their pals in Gov't convince themselves that all public sector workers are greedy, lazy fuckers and all the City bods are hard-working saviours of Britain who deserve protection and huge bonuses.

Doctors get paid a lot but work bloody hard in a real job, helping real people, as opposed to moving pretend money around a huge gambling arena. I know who I would like to get the breaks but I don't see it happening any time soon.

"The changes, as with teachers, are ideological and not financial in motive."

Then why are labour proposing them too?

"And I never saw anyone proposing raising public sector salaries when they were lower than private sector salaries"

The high pension was traditionally compensation for a lower salary. PS salaries are now higher than their private sector equivalents, yet the huge pensions remain. And often still with the extra 'nice' aspects of PS working intact (job security, flexible hours, relaxed attitude to 'sickies' etc)

"Yet somehow financial workers and their pals in Gov't convince themselves that all public sector workers are greedy, lazy fuckers and all the City bods are hard-working saviours of Britain who deserve protection and huge bonuses."

Ha ha - so we all think the financial sector are saviours of Britain do we?

Its been non stop banker bashing in this country since 2008.

TBF, the city bods and the public sector are two sides of the same greedy coin. We shouldn't just attack the public sector.