to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

Um...huge numbers of bankers have been fired over the past few years...many have seen their pensions take a massive dive in value...only a very, very few played a role in the events that led up to the financial crisis.
I'm not crying out "pity the bankers!" but please don't tar all with the same brush or assume that none have suffered as a result of this economy.

JuliaScurr

private sector pensions are crap because of private sector employers, not public sector workers

No, they're crap because of Gordon Brown.

@FreeSee

"and will only get a pension of £48,000"

No, I think you may have shot yourself in the foot by saying that it's 'only' that amount.

When I started my job I could have expected a final salary scheme, probably with a similar pension as stated. That got taken away, and I was given a defined benefit scheme (after I had already signed my contract with my 'gold plated pension' as it were). Then, after a further period of time, that was scrapped.

There is very little sympathy when that is a significantly large pension being accrued, and most people cannot DREAM of a pension pot that big nowadays.

The country doesn't have the money. Almost everyone has has to readjust their expectations of retirement - why should doctors, teachers, nurses be any different to everyone else in the private sector. Yes, they work hard, yes they are very important to society, but there are hundreds of thousands of other people who also work damn hard and make a difference who won't get anything other than a state pension.

Am feeling v frustrated and have only followed link to this thread from Active Convos but my instant response is:

What difference would a strike make ? I've just been to see my MW at 40+5 and been told that as I'm hoping for a VBAC, I can't make a plan for an induction or CS or have a sweep until next Wednesday as no clinics available. My only option is to go to the ante natal day unit tomorrow morning at 10.30am and wait until the one Dr on duty is available to see me which (I quote) "could mean you are there for the day".

I guess I've just seen this thread at the wrong time and have probably gone off topic on a rant but really?! I have huge respect for anyone working for the NHS but the overall organisation is just wrong - why should there be less care just because of a weekend or a bank holiday?

Sorry....as you were....

From Wednesday's Guardian:

"By 2014, some doctors will have 14.5% deducted from their pay for their pensions, compared with 7.35% for senior civil servants on similar salaries, to receive similar pensions, said the BMA."

If I, in the private sector, wanted a pension paying the same benefits as the doctor's scheme I would have to pay much more than this. I think that there is an argument that everyone who works should be able to pay a % of their income into a state scheme that mirrors the benefits of public sector scheme, but why do that when it would truly bankrupt the nation, unless contributions were designed to mirror the actual cost.

IMO all public sector pensions should cost, in contributions, what it costs the state to put enough aside to pay the pensions in retirement. Our children and grandchildren are going to have to pick up the tab for today's unfunded schemes, when they won't get to enjoy similar benefits themselves. I can't see how that is justified.

@collaborate

Your points are spot on... as you mention the BMA say:

"By 2014, some doctors will have 14.5% deducted from their pay for their pensions, compared with 7.35% for senior civil servants on similar salaries, to receive similar pensions"

Just because something is less wrong than something else that is wrong, doesn't make it right. So BMA, what would be the percentage in the private sector ?

Mirry - no NHS doctors are not self employed. If you see a doctor in an NHS hospital then they are paid by the NHS. If you see a doctor in a private hospital / clinic then yes they will be.

I feel that you can't compare private and state sector pensions. Yes you would pay more if you were in the private sector but then you wouldn't have to work a 12 hour or 24 hour shift as a doctor does. The other thing that seems to have gotten confused is that the government want to renegotiate this pension - it is not in defecit it can easily support the number of doctors due to retire. They also want to re-negotiate the retirement age of doctors to 68. There is a school of thought that would say you wouldn't have a 68 year old paramedic or fireman so why would you have a 68 year old surgeon.

Bumpsedaisy - are GPs self employed? what about NHS hospital doctors who also take on private patients? Surely they are partly self employed? how many hours are the allowed to devote to their private patients. I've been seing an NHS consultant who also has a Harley Street address and 2 other private hospital addresses plus a secretary at each address. He must be devoting only a fraction of his time to his NHS patients.

To continue my previous post, if doctors (GPS and consultants) are also seeing private patients and taking on private insurance and other work how are they making time to see NHS patients. I wonder if the reason they say they are working 40+ hours is that some of these hours are devoted to private patients?

I'm sure I posted this before but if an employed person is no longer competent to carry out his job (because of physical or mental impairment) he or she can be retired early. That would be the same in any walk of life so I assume it would be the same for doctors.

GP's are self employed.

NHS consultants will have contracts for a certain number of hours. They have to spend that long on NHS work. The idea of consultants being able to spend working time on a golf course is a myth.

The idea of paid holidays at the expense of drug companies is also untrue, not least because the pharmaceutical industry has got very strict standards on how money can be spent on promotional activities.

bumpsidaisy. Doctors are not unique I have a senior private sector job - in a health related field. My contract is for 37.5hrs or whatever is needed to meet the demands of the job. Often late nights, weekends, overseas travel. If I didnt do the hours required I would be out pretty fast. Most senior private sector jobs are like this. I dont know anyone in my field who does a standard working week

Am sick of listening to highly paid public sector workers such as doctors bleating about losing their final salary schemes when none of us in the private sector have had one of those for years. My SIL will retire at 55 on an NHS pension next yr as she is in the mental health field. We simply cannot afford to keep funding schemes like this.

I agree OP. No one is having an easy time of it, they shoukd suck it up!! I also studied for years & I work 70 hours a week, can't afford a pension, and cannot get back on the property ladder. Why do I have to suffer these strikes?

bumpsiedaisy you can't say that the NHS pension is in surplus. It isn't a funded scheme. It is completely unfunded. It is only because the NHS and the public sector in general has so many workers today in comparison to the relatively small numbers of pensioners that the contributions received outweigh the pensions paid out. But if the state were to go to actuaries and ask how much should be put aside to provide a fund capable of making good on the promises made to the public sector workers it would be a hell of a lot more than has been paid until now.

And GPs are technically self employed. Their contract with the NHS involves them being given membership of the NHS pension scheme.

hiveofbees I didn't mention working holidays. I do know, however that some GPs of my acquaintance are paid hadsomely to complete surveys and other similar projects do other non NHS work. I just find it strange that they are all complaining that they have to work excessive hours for which they aren't paid but at the same time they have the time to take on private work. I wonder if they did less private work they wouldn't be so worn out.

Mirry

It was mentioned by someone else earlier in the thread.

I agree with you, that it doesnt really make sense to be struggling with the day job and do large amounts of private work. The option would be there to request a part-time contract if the hours of work are too much, or to not do a large amout of private work. There are some bits of private work that arent easily avoidable, eg if you need your GP to do write a letter that isnt covered by NHS work eg to your employer, or about fitness to fly, etc then it wouldnt be that great for the GP who knows you to refuse to do it, and then you have to go and find someone else to do it.

An NHS consultant will have a defined NHS contract stipulating hours/terms and conditions. Outside his/her contracted hours working for the NHS, they can work privately.

The consultant may have a be part-time NHS contract (and be paid pro-rata).

Some GP's are technically self employed (but only have 1 client, the NHS), they pay 26% of income into pension ATM, but many GP's are employed (employed by GP partnerships or directly by the health board), and a few work as private GP's - mostly in London.

There are strict rules about what private work GP's are allowed to do (they can't just charge NHS patients for services that they should provide for "free"). So insurance medicals for employment reasons for example - people pay for those, as the NHS won't.

40+ hours? My DH has been working as a GP for 20 years, I don't think he has ever had a week where he's worked anything like 40hrs, typically the "half-time" partners at his practice work around 35hrs a week and the full time ones 60+hrs - DH has taken on several additional roles in the area of health service reforms ...... for which, he has pointed out, he gets paid less than the cleaner..... this takes him up to 80 or so hrs a week. He works most days with no lunch break or other breaks. He is choosing to do extra work (the health service reform roles) of around 20hrs a week because it is benefiting (actually saving lives), in the exceptionally deprived area he works in.
He is getting pretty hacked off with the constant Daily Fail style "GP's are over-paid and must be punished" comments. Having a high income does not mean you are overpaid. I think the NHS gets excellent value for money from my DH and his partners - they are worth every penny and more. They work in an a very challenging environment dealing with some of the most socially and economically vulnerable families in the country.

Excuse me SCOTCHandWRY - 40+ means anything over 40 and anyway if he chooses to do extra work , taking him upto 80 hours a week, that is his perogative. nobody is making him.

I'm getting pretty hacked of myself with all the posts referring to being paid the same as or less than the cleaner/plumber/postman etc. Maybe posters don't mean to do it but it really comes across as patronising to me.

Collaborate what well put, logical points. And elastamum.

Maybe Mirry, people are continually posting about the fact they are taking on additional hours/roles where they get paid less than the cleaner because they are trying to get across the point that they are choosing to do work (often like my DH this will be committee and consultation work aimed at improving patient safety and outcomes), for which they get paid LESS THAN THE CLEANER!
Yes, my DH chooses to do this work.... from across the dinner table he is saying "because nobody else wants to do it"..... because he believes it NEEDS to be done.

Would you prefer it if he (and his partners), just didn't bother?

Does it really matter if they're paid less than the cleaner? Whose cleaner are you talking about? I'm not in the fortunate position of having a cleaner so I don't know what their rates are.

Mirry2 - if people make the commitment to put so much of their lives towards working and studying and then are paid less than a cleaner, yes, I think it's a valid point to make.
I feel equally horrified when I hear the same about qualified nursery nurses being paid less. Cleaners are important, but there is a difference in the responsibility and education levels for Drs/nurses/nursery nurses etc.

If there werent so many comments about doctors being paid too much, spending afternoons on the golf course etc then I doubt they would bother to make posts comparing their wages to other positions.
I dont think that anyone is not valuing the job that cleaners do, but there is a difference in the level of education, skills and responsibility.

I know lots of private sector people who put in the hours and have the education, and end up getting paid less than the cleaner as overtime isn't paid. Some are self employed, some do it as its the only way it advances their career, some do it because its just expected and part of the culture of the industry they work in.

So lets not say that only doctors have this problem to contend with.

The one thing they all have in common though, is that they generally know that, that level of work and commitment is expected of them, when they take the job.

All this stuff that doctors are complete martyrs gets on my nerves. They could have a lot of similar problems in other professions. Some that carry an extraordinary level of reasonability and concern for public health and safety too. Its not something restricted exclusively to doctors.

I object the emotional blackmail when it comes to doctors striking in that respect. I have no problem with their right to strike, but I do take issue when they lay it on thick.