to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

I know it's comparing apples to oranges, but I don't mind doctors getting more pay. What pisses me off intensely is celebrity worship and footballers getting paid ridiculous sums of money.

Angelina fricking Jolie 'supporting' some cause or another. Yeah, just putting her name to some document. .

Well at least doctors save lives and GENUINELY do good!

We've all had the goal posts moved. When I entered the workplace and started pension scheme, I would have been able to draw pension at 60, it's now 67 and rising.

We're all going to have to pay in more (thanks Gordon), for longer and get poorer returns (thanks again Gordon).

No-one is a special case.

We've got the cult of celebrity, footballers on ridiculously high salaries, the leeches of the royal family (nothing against them as people, just the concept of royalty), the frigging massive waste of taxpayers money that is the olympics and doctors are being slagged off?!!! How about tackling the REAL leeches on society?

YABU OP, they are professionals they have not taken this decision lightly, and they have as much right to protect their futures as best they can, as the next man. We need our medical profession to attract the brightest and the best, and a good pension and salary is vital to this.

Wamster Footballers work for private companies paid for by income from television viewers.

Royal Family don't leech off anyone they provide a surplus.

Olympics are a once in a lifetime occurance and it was labour who saddled the country with them.

Doctors are paid for by a bloated NHS paid for out of our taxes which are more than high enough.

You are right the leeches of society should be tackled which is what the government are tying to do by reforming payments to the feckless getting handouts for housing etc.

I will confess I haven't waded through every page of this, but I was quite sympathetic towards the doctors (my bro is one so I know how hard they work) until I heard Andrew Lansley on World at One yesterday saying that the BMA Pensions representative didn't show up to any of the meetings that they had regarding pensions changes. I also found it hard to be sympathetic hearing that a newly qualified doctor, starting this August and working to retirement could expect to have a pension of £48,000 a year - a private sector worker would have to have a pension pot of £1.5 million to generate that. A consultant gets a pension of close to £60k a year and a six figure lump sum on retirement. It doesn't seem to be that stingy a pension scheme to me, at a time when everyone is having to take a hit and will expect to retire on a LOT less than that, even allowing for how long they train. (Ignoring the stress factors, I expect an architect or vet doesn't get a pension that generous and they train for a comparable time.)

I hate this "well we put up with shit conditions, so why shouldn't they have shitty conditions too" attitude. People who spout it are rather lacking in intelligence in my view.

Lacking in intelligence for 'spouting' this. No, just sick to death with this woe is me attitude. You train as a Doctor, you know what you are taking on. Other careers choices demand a great deal from the individual and do not have the protected godlike status afforded to Doctors. They are not gods, they are doing a job, a well trained one yes and a caring role (hmmmm, might have to remind a few doctors of this factor). Many nurses I know would have an awful lot to say about that!

No-one in this day and age should be living with such protected special status - not when others who may also be highly trained etc etc are facing poverty in their retirement.

Someone else up the thread commented about the doctors they know, private school etc etc. I have just counted up the Doctors and consultants we know... 27. Every single one has their kids in private school, most have more than two holidays a year, many wives don't work etc etc. If I contrast that with others we know, many of whom are very highly qualified and hitting the tops of their professions, majority of wives work, money is tight. The disparity is massive.

And finally, If we all work hard, why aren't we all doctors? there are many kids who would have liked to choose to become a Doctor, Lawyer etc etc but due to the limitations placed on the education experience at 14 for vast amounts of people those options simply aren't there.

Why is this action taking place?
Despite agreeing to major reforms in 2008 that made the NHS pension scheme fair and sustainable, doctors are now being asked to work even longer, up to 68, and to contribute much more of their salary, up to 14.5 per cent. These contributions are twice as much as those of civil servants at the same level of seniority and pay, for the same pension. We are not looking for preferential treatment from the Government but are taking action because we want fair treatment. Doctors feel let down by the way the Government has torn up a deal that was fair, sustainable and affordable.

This is the first industrial action by doctors since 1975 and it is not a decision we have taken lightly. We have consistently urged the Government to reconsider its wholesale changes to the NHS pension scheme and, even at this stage, would much prefer to negotiate a fairer deal instead of taking action.

Worth repeating:

We are not looking for preferential treatment from the Government but are taking action because we want fair treatment. Doctors feel let down by the way the Government has torn up a deal that was fair, sustainable and affordable.

Why do doctors feel so strongly - everyone has to do their bit in this financial climate?

The NHS pension scheme was compeletely overhauled in 2008 to make it sustainable and currently delivers a positive cashflow to the Treasury of £2 billion a year. Despite this, the UK Government is making further, major changes to the pensions of NHS staff. Doctors would be particularly hard hit, with those at the start of their careers typically paying twice as much in lifetime contributions and working until they are 68.

Although the country is now in a different financial situation from 2008, this has not altered the sustainability of the scheme. As part of the 2008 agreement, NHS staff took on responsibility for any future increases in costs due to improved life expectancy.
Only last year, a report by the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee found that the 2008 reforms are bringing substantial savings to taxpayers, with the scheme set to be sustainable well into the future.

www.bmaaction.org/faq.html#q1

We won't have final salary schemes for long...

"In 2015, there will be a switch to a new career average revalued earnings (CARE) scheme for all doctors. For hospital doctors, this means the end of the final salary scheme, resulting in around a 30 per cent reduction in value on a like-forlike basis. GPs already have a CARE scheme but they will also see their contributions rise very significantly."

BartletForAmerica

We are not looking for preferential treatment from the Government but are taking action because we want fair treatment.

Mmm, that old weasel world 'fair' again.

Doctors feel let down by the way the Government has torn up a deal that was fair, sustainable and affordable.

I still have yet to see anyone post the actual figures for the accumulated pension surplus and prove it sustainability. So please point us all to the pension figures and let us review them for ourselves and judge their affordability and sustainability for ourselves.

"I heard Andrew Lansley on World at One yesterday saying that the BMA Pensions representative didn't show up to any of the meetings that they had regarding pensions changes."

Don't know what he is talking about here given that the Government have refused to negotiate with the BMA on this and have just said, "This is what's happening. Get over it."

Doctors feel let down by the way the Government has torn up a deal that was fair, sustainable and affordable.

"I still have yet to see anyone post the actual figures for the accumulated pension surplus and prove it sustainability. So please point us all to the pension figures and let us review them for ourselves and judge their affordability and sustainability for ourselves."

The report is here:

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/public-accounts-committee/news/pensions-report/

From that:

Government projections suggest that the 2007-08 changes are likely to reduce costs to taxpayers of the pension schemes by £67 billion over 50 years, with costs stabilising at around 1% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) or 2% of public expenditure.

My son wants to be a Dr. So, out of his salary he will have to pay his student loan back at a fairly high rate, and 14% of income on pensions. So, the government will be taking a significant amount of his monthly wage. Wonder how he'll pay rent?

The £2billion surplus:

budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/economic-and-fiscal-outlook-november-2010/

Public finances supplementary data - Economic and fiscal outlook November 2010

then table 1.5

Bartlet the average doctor costs the NHS an extra 14K a year over and above their salary in pension costs and reaps benefits far in excess of what their contributions buy.

You are right that there needs to be a fair and wholesale revision of the pension scheme. Why should a doctor starting today get a similar pension scheme to those who already are retired or are about to retire? Most industries already have crossed this bridge and got rid of the old style ponzi scheme pension pots.

You will find in all walks of life A, B, C and even D Scales of pay for the same jobs. Why should it be that new hires in a new economy get the same contractual benefits or that contracts cannot change to cover changes in economy. It's not like there are real redundancies happening in the NHS unlike the economy as a whole.

We are not looking for preferential treatment from the Government but are taking action because we want fair treatment.

"Mmm, that old weasel world 'fair' again."

Not sure what the problem is there with parity across the public sector.

By 2014, some doctors will see deductions of 14.5% from their pay for their pensions, compared to 7.35% for civil servants on similar salaries, to receive similar pensions.

Bartlet - he stated that they have had meetings throughout last year and the BMA Pensions Rep "didn't turn up". I don't know about the ins and outs, I never have time to talk to my brother about it - he's permanently on call or in theatre, so I am happy to accept he was being economical with the truth.

My pension (private sector professional) has changed dramatically - from when I started, an expectation of a 'gold plated' final salary scheme, to a defined benefit scheme, to a place where I have to provide my own pension. Had I withdrawn my labour, I would have lost my job. I am struggling to have much sympathy with public sector workers bleating about how it's 'not fair' that the goal posts have changed. They have for everyone - the country has run out of money - and we all have to make sacrifices.

"there needs to be a fair and wholesale revision of the pension scheme"

There was in 2008.

"Why should it be that new hires in a new economy get the same contractual benefits or that contracts cannot change to cover changes in economy."

The 2008 pension takes this into consideration.

Can't speak for hospital doctors but I've worked in a large GP practice for years and seen how they manipulate the system to minimise workload and maximise profit. They use all kinds of dodges, only employing women past child bearing age or otherwise unlikely to need maternity leave, keeping patients on practice register even when they've moved away/gone abroad so continuing to get paid for them, just a few examples. They can get away with it because they're outside the NHS and manage themselves as a business.
They should have private - not state - pensions.

Needaclearout, that sounds all very dodgy, but certainly not representative of all GPs.

People interested in the facts of this all might want to read the official BMA site:

www.bma.org.uk/employmentandcontracts/pensions/nhs_pensions_reform/index.jsp

"You train as a Doctor, you know what you are taking on."

Well, apparently not, because apparently the terms are being changed.

We will have to agree to differ on the concept that the only difference between a doctor and a non-doctor is that a doctor has had the opportunity to have a privileged education.

YABU, why shouldn't they stand up for themselves?
And I speak as a 34 year old with no pension and probably no likelihood of ever having one that's worth it.