to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

I think we agree Mosman - People have stayed in the NHS because of security and pensions. The private sector does pay more. I know that it does, and I know that if I moved to the private sector I would be gettig more money. tbh money isnt the main motivator for me, I like my job, and I like the people that I work with. But the prospect of losing the NHS pension is a thought too. The government are doing their best to remove that factor from the equation.

With respect there are very few roles within the NHS that exist outside of it and would pay more money.
And most of the Dr's I know wouldn't be employable, highly intelligent but I don't know how they get dressed in the morning by themselves !

The public sector do all those things orangeandlemons, and will continue to do them on lower pay and smaller pensions.

Public sector workers are are overpaid, over pensioned and over here. The public has cottoned on and sentiment is turning. The doctors in particular, who are paid huge salaries and pensions, should have the good sense to recognise this and take the hit. They will still be better off than 99% of the rest of the country, but wont have made a name for themselves as a profession more interested in pay than caring.

everythinginmjinature on the whole I think I agree with your viewpoint but your maths doesn't stand up re the hourly wage - presumably you get holidays as a doctor? (Sorry, this is so pernickety, I'm just a bit anal when it comes to this kind of thing)

Right last post, summerintherosegarden - yes, I get holdays (32 days), but when I do my job plan, these weeks are taken out, as is my study leave entitlement (10 days). For example, I am paid to do 42 clinics on a Monday morning. I am not paid for the other 10 weeks, whether I take the annual leave/ study leave or not. this occurs for all my activities, so in effect, I am not paid for my holiday time!

Of the point of pensions, I can't remember who made this point, but I agree that I think this is part of a conservative policy to degrade the NHS. I am proud of the NHS. I am proud to work in a country that has a NHS. I am proud that I work for the NHS. However, I think my job in 10 years time will be very different and the NHS will be left to deal with the chronic illness, the emergencies, the difficult (as in to manage) and expensive patients.
If you want your elective surgery - those things that are relatively easy and cheap to deal with, you will be in the private sector. It is happening already, with choose and book, but at the moment it is still free at the point of care. How long do you think that will last for? and btw, the effect for me? More money (potentially lots more), but for the NHS? A two tier system that will cost at the point of care i.e. not a National health system. I suspect Aneurin Bevin is rolling in his grave.

Sorry, off not of

YABU.

I applaud the doc who was on BBC news this morning - he made it clear he would never refuse to treat a patient (ie go on strike, this is 'industrial action' not a strike he said) as it goes against everything he is as a doctor. (One would assume the hypocratic (sp) oath?)

Thanks for the clarificiation tokengirl.

Fwiw my first year working in one of the best paid professions in the private sector worked out at less than minimum wage on an hourly basis, but I'm not using that as a slight against the arguments of the doctors here (and I don't think I've seen a single doctor on this thread complaining about the status quo of compensation/hours/pension, just the proposed changes, which is quite reasonable)

I know alot of Doctors and their lifestyle is good. Yes they have worked bloody hard, but frankly who doesn't. Yes they hold our lives in their hands (apart from the ones who with their negligence nearly killed me) and yes they are well renumerated for that. They are well trained but in all these they are not alone.

We live in a mad world when someone can stop work at 60, get a lump sum, over £100,000 and then receive £68,000 a year and can possibly live for the next 30+ years. No amount of contributions leading up to that pays that out!

But this doesn't just hold for Doctors, its MP's, police, judges (now that is an incredible deal) and many others. We have a sector of society in the private sector whose sense of entitlement blows me away.

My husband and I both work, we earn well, we are trying to build pensions, we are highly qualified and work bloody long hours but the moment we stop the money stops too. Who is going to give us a pile of cash then a fantastic pension for the next 30 years. We ARE going to be working until we drop.

The problem is the deals for these were done in the 70's, life expectency was lower.

I know a senior policeman who retires next week at 48, he is open about the deal he is on, he is also open about the last 30 years on the force and it is hard not to feel quick sick when we are killing ourselves to get through every day.

I know High Court judges who retire next month - crikey, don't get me started!

I know two consultants who retire after them. They are both 58, they are also open about their situation.

This is 5 people and you are talking about nearly 3 million pounds in cost to the public purse. Yes they have made impressive and vital contribuitons to our society - but 3 million pounds! Scale that up and feel ill!

What is the current retirement age for doctors in the NHS?
Why do all the ones I know (about half a dozen - I don't have time to add them up) work a 4 day week maximum, send their kids to private schools and have at least one second home and pay for their kids to go to university so that they don't have to take out a student loan?

The figures that they quoted on Channel 4 new last night were:

For a consultant on £120k retiring at 60, they would receive a pension of £52k with a lump sum of £157k.

To buy this pension in the private sector would cost £1.6 million.

Completely support the Doctors Action. Public Sector Worker here with a DH who is a nurse, a DD who starts nurse training in September, and another DD who wants to go into Medical School.

I am fed up about hearing about all these gold plated pensions. I do benefits Advice, and older people who have private pensions get hammered for everything. Have to pay Council Tax, Dental Treatment, Rent etc, Nursing Home Fees etc. People who have no private pensions get Council tax rebates and most things free, don't have to pay top up fees in care homes et etc. The system punishes people who work hard and put money away for their later years.

My pension on last forecast will be about 7 grand a year.Seriously thinking about stop paying into it and let the state keep me. Think I would be better off :)

Apologies as have only read the first and last page.
Just noticed this from mirry2

''What is the current retirement age for doctors in the NHS?
Why do all the ones I know (about half a dozen - I don't have time to add them up) work a 4 day week maximum, send their kids to private schools and have at least one second home and pay for their kids to go to university so that they don't have to take out a student loan?''

Mirry- I think that these Drs must be in their 50s rather than 20s or 30s.
These people have benefited massively from the housing boom of the last 20 years and have already benefited from the lower pension contributions.
My husband and I are Drs (late 30s) and we work an average of 90 hours or so a week between us. I can assure you that we do not send our children to private school (we cannot afford it) nor have a second home (the thought is laughable at present). Obviously, for our DC, University is a long way off and I think that proves my point that you are talking of much older Drs not the ones who will be most affected by the pension changes.

The pay of doctors has always been considerable lower than those of comparable private sector professionals (I know lots of those too). Yes, they work hard but so do we and they reap much greater financial awards.
The advantages of public sector work (good pensions and a job for life) are being eroded.

I would never claim that I am badly paid - now. This is after qualifying in my late 20s (mature student) having worked and supported myself throughout. I have worked 102 hrs/wk rotas 1:3 with prospective cover (which made it a 1:2. To clarify, you arrived at work at 8 or 9am, had a 'normal' working day til 5pm, then worked your arse off at 1/3 of you normal pay as only 'on call' which in reality ment you worked harden than during the day, to then go back to your normal day duties from 9 to 5. Then evening/night off - and repeat).

I now nominally work 25 hrs/wk ie that's is what I am being paid for. As I am a partner in a business (GP partner) there is far, far more to it. In reality I work more like 40-50 hrs. I have 35 hrs paid childcare which means the remaining hrs occur at evenings (after bedtime ie after 8pm) or weekends. If my husband isn't working.

I do not make a quarter of a million pounds/year.
I do not make 6 figures/yr.
I don't think that I should make that kind of money.
I do not have any kind of private income.
My kids go to the local school.
We do not have a second home.

HOWEVER - I do think that I should get the pension I signed up for.
As should anybody else who enters a job knowing what's expected of them and what they can expect in return.

The doctors pension scheme is in surplus as over the years our contributions have been very high and in fact have subsidised some other NHS workers' pensions.

I pay employers and employee contributions which will now be 26% of my income.

All of you saying 'you drs are so well off compared to others' are of course right. ONe could argye that we are also worse of than some really top earners.
SO?? How does either argument make any difference??

The thruth of the matter is, the country is skint, and the government will claw pack money wherever they can.
Just not from the superrich/taxevaders etc pp.

Yes, I am angry.
I know it won't make one blind bit of difference.
I also see this as an attack on the NHS. Once it's gone, we'll all be in deep shit. Providing health care for all will never be as equal as it currently is (and yes, I know it is not truly equal - you try referring patient from different postcodes entitles to different services and justifiying that to them).

I will now hide this thread. I really despair at the lack of some of your ability to see the wider picture here. This is not about 'woe betide me' it is an undermining of a wonderful prinicple.
Big Society - my arse!!

Since none of the increase in pension contributions is going anywhere near the pension pot, why not just put taxes up? If the government wants to increase revenues then just do it.

This is nothing to do with salaries, conditions of work, long hours - simply that no one else in the public sector on similar salaries is having to put this extra money in. It's basically just a tax on doctors.

By pretending it's a pension issue when it isn't is a clever way of undermining doctors even further and don't blame us when you're struggling to recruit and the exodus to Canada, New Zealand and Australia continues.

I too am a doctor. I have MBBS, MRCP and a PhD which I finished in 3 hers whilst working part-time in a clinical job. My MB BS was by far the hardest due to the breadth and volume of work required. As a part-time consultant I will ironically have a better pension under the new rules but I have voted for industrial action as I believe the students and juniors coming after us who are graduating with hundreds of thousands of debt deserve to be able to get on the property ladder, afford childcare and retire with a decent pension. Most doctors of my generation are actively encouraging their children not to go to medical school which is a sad reflection of the current working conditions and vision of the future. This is obviously not all due to the pension changes but they are certainly not helping.

I am also highly qualified and trained and provide a valuable service (but earning less than half a doctors salary) and could also move abroad and earn lots more money, but I don't go on about it. I really don't like these 'you'll be sorry when we're gone' remarks. They may be true, they may not be but they definitely aren't endearing.

I don't think that trying to endear oneself to other posters is the point of AIBU.

I see that you haven't answered my question re the ages of your medical friends, mirry.

We also have an relatively easy option to work abroad (my DH is not British) and may well take it, for various reasons, not just financial.

Being a doctor is extremely privileged in many ways but the thought of a high salary (per hour and relative to the number of years of training and degree of responsibility) is not one of the attractions. I remember being paid £3.72 (gross) for all my out of hours work as a junior doctor. The cleaner was on £10 per hour.

It real says something when people making some 100k think they are hard done by. I haven't got a routine appointment on the 21st. But this hacks me off on behalf of all those who do.

Can I have a reduction onmy taxes for the service not being provided?

The strike will probably do more to encourage public support for private GPs than it will to prolong a pension agreement they have not yet earned.

I fully support their strike. My GP great. She deserves every penny she gets.

I hate this "well we put up with shit conditions, so why shouldn't they have shitty conditions too" attitude. People who spout it are rather lacking in intelligence in my view.

im sure they didnt enter into lightly, ive got nothing against striking.
emergencies will still be seen to,so ???

No-one going to link to evidence re the "scheme surplus" ?

Teachers maintained their scheme was in surplus too but we couldn't get a link to credible evidence statistics.

The employer pays into the scheme too. The employer is the government and this means it comes from tax revenues.

The schemes have to be brought more into line with the average that any worker can obtain, anything in excess of that is a luxury.

Austerity years don't provide for funding luxuries, not even if you are a doctor. Lots of people work unsocila hours/shifts/on-call for far lower wages.

No-one is a special case, sorry

Ultimately if civil service pensions (whitehall and MP's) aren't tackled in the same fashion there should be appropriate action.

I am a doctor and spent the nineties working 90 hour weeks . I still routinely work far beyond my contracted hours - on NHS work, not private. Whilst I get an immense deal of satisfaction from my career, I find it difficult to understand why, when I pay into a scheme that generates a surplus, I am being asked to essentially pay more for less. I will be taking action in June.

Although life expectancy is increasing, we don't know that we will all live longer in good health.

I'm not sure that I would want to have open heart surgery carried out on me by somebody in their 60's. Many of those who have been striking (doctors, police, prison staff) do jobs that require good physical health.

£100K a year isn't a lot of money compared to other professions. To be a doctor you have to study for many years and achieve very high exam results. If we all work hard, why aren't we all doctors?

The scheme surplus is a mis-direction. Don't forget that during the 90's many final salary schemes also ran at great surpluses allowing companies to take pension holidays then the late 90's and 2000's came alone and the great deficits lead to almost all final salary schemes disappearing.

Comparing the doctors scheme to MP's is again another mis-direction. We expect MP'S to cut off their careers to be our democratic representatives and of course if you do not like how they perform you are free to turf them out on their arse again every 5 years now. Perhaps you'd all prefer to go back to rotten burghs and only the wealthy or union stooges being able to afford to sit in parliament?

Comparing doctors to footballers is again nonsense unless a doctor can entertain 60,000 folks all at the same time paying about 40 pounds a wack. If they wanted to be entertainers they could have gone that route a la Harry Hill etc or perhaps international rugby player like JPR Williams etc. etc.

If Doctors want more money then I've no problem if the NHS wants to birng in charges per appointment but alas I think most would baulk at that including the same minority of doctors who voted for action.