not admit to my lovely df that i think homeopathy is a load of, well, nonsense?

[ForkInTheForeheid]

My df is a big believer in homeopathy, the homeopathic Dr was the first port of call when we were kids, I'm sure we as kids and my dad have had lots of benefit from the placebo effect over the years. :-) however, as an adult with a critical mind and some scientific knowledge I came to the conclusion that I didn't believe any of homeopathy's claims. So for several years every time DS or I get any illness my dad tells me which homeopathic remedy I need, emphatic that aconite will destroy the common cold if you "catch it early enough" and that rus. tox. (?) will cure chicken pox and stop the spots from turning into scabs, they will just disappear back into the body apparently...

So aibu to politely nod and agree despite thinking it's a load of rubbish (no placebo effect if you don't believe it will work either) or should I admit my scepticism to him? I'm usually pretty honest with people and so it makes me feel icky and uncomfortable but I don't want to hurt his feelings.

The relative effectiveness of drugs has nothing to do with the subject of homeopathy. At least drugs have something in them and attempt to have a mechanism to help you. Homeopathy is empty pills which seek to lie and decieve the vulnerable or stupid.
Different argument entirely.

Homeopathy does not stave off disease.

It makes us so mad because it is the biggest pile of illogical wank in the western world and it is beyond depressing that so many people buy into this shit. History will view us all as imbeciles if this is the crap we are remembered for. Its the dumbing down of the species. Cop yourselves on.

Jeesh - The US spends 2 trillion dollars on healthcare per annum.
History will view us all as imbeciles if this is the crap we go along with.

Yeah because discovering new drugs and curing illnesses is exactly the same thing as believing in woo-water having a memory and nonexistent particles curing anything at all.

Well, was a bit when a friend suggested a homeopathic vet for my dog who had a dreadful skin condition. But it worked I have no idea why or how...

Mayisout: so if you believe homeopathy does work can you explain how a pill containing water which holds the memory of something it was once in contact with works? And can you explain how water has a memory according to homeopaths but water treated at sewage works doesn't hold the memory of shit?

FWIW I am agreeing with you callmeal, mayisout and edam! Not sure if that came across...
Not really comparing the efficacy of drugs to homeopathy, I realise there is no comparison there. Just chatting randomly about placebos.
Edam has an excellent point about the fact that things (vague general term) work for people, sometimes with no explanation. Also what does it tell you about all the amazing testing drug companies do if the drugs are then tested after a period of time and no longer work, hmm!! Illustrated by the use of amoxycillin, a pretty useless antibiotic these days.

Amoxycillin is less useful because of bacteria developing resistance to it, not because it was based on poor science.

Can none of the pro-homeopathy posters answer my question regarding the memory of water?

The harm of homeopathy is that it promotes scientific illiteracy and ignorance. It is a sham, a fraud and can not, will not EVER have any physical effect on an ache, pain or ailment.

The question I want answered is how does the homeopath distinguish between pills and potions if all the labels fall off all the bottles?

Sorry, not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but did you know the placebo effect is so strong that people see a benefit even if they know it is a placebo. Human brain. Tis a wonderful thing.

Yes, I am aware of the placebo effect. However homeopathic remedies do not have any active agents in them. Water has no memory and homeopathy will not and can not cure or effectively treat anything beyond the placebo... unlike 'medicine'

Herbal medicine can have strong effects - after all, lots of drugs come from plants. They have active ingredients.

Homeopathy is water with a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny amount of an ingredient in it. The weaker the solution the more powerful it is

It's worth being clear abour the differences between the two.

The point is, if the person taking the Homeopathy pill "thinks" it will work, it may actually work.

Homeopathy "works" because of the placebo effect.

edam I completely agree that if it works for you, and you choose to spend your own money on it, that is nobody else's business.

What makes me cross though, is when taxpayer's money is spent on homeopathic 'remedies' by the NHS, when NICE so frequently refuses to fund drugs that have proven efficacy.

The issue is though a person 'thinking' or being told that woo will help something potentially very serious like an infection etc...

Your df unfortunately has some really stupid beliefs...telling him this is another matter. I don't think there is a nice way of doing it and if you are really passive and just say "Happy it works for you but I don't think it's for me" he is unlikely to drop the subject.

We have the same problem with a lovely local family who cart their kids 1 hour's drive away to the homeopathic paediatrician (France, they are bonkers with homeopathy!). We have never raised the subject but they are intent on offering his services and suggesting we switch doctors. I politely say no thank you each time, but they insist on asking why not. What am I supposed to say "Because you are a total idiot and he is either more moronic than you even or a con artist?"...not very nice and would probably spell the end of an otherwise perfectly fine friendship.

Calmeal

I think you read my comments without putting them in context.
I was responding to the drift of the conversation that said, broadly, that as honeopathy was rubbish it was fine to feel superior about saying so and asserting that a belief in it was a good thing.

My comments were consistently that whilst I think it is bollocks one should leave people of sound mind to their own beliefs out of good manners.

No where was I suggesting that we should put up with being badgered. In fact it woukd be a little illogical to assume tat hiven that my posts are about respecting others views, we should put up with being harangued.

So you sarcastic sign off about 'massive leaps of logic and accusations' seems a bit misplaced.

I admire your scattergun contempt for everyone that you assume is pro homeopathy but it is a little rude and unnecessary.

A belief in it was not a good thing...

Cake - but the drugs often aren't as great as the manufacturers claim. As my comment about after 10 years studies show most drugs perform little better than placebo explained. NICE does get things wrong but also protects people against drugs that aren't great and protects the taxpayer against being ripped off by drugs companies (which do do some good things, just the whole process of proving new drugs are safe and effective is incredibly murky - see the Seroxat scandal for just one example).

NICE also uses QALYs which are not necessarily a great way to measure better health/less pain/all other effects of decent drugs. So their judgement can be questionable because the tools are imperfect.

I don't agree. You took people who are against homeopathy and say so, and made out they "always had to be vocally right" and equating them with being droning bores unable to shut up about anything. No basis in fact, no reason to think this true except a bias of your own.
Don't make big leaps and people won't point them out. It wasn't sarcasm, it was my reading of your illogical post.

And as I said, I disagree that anyone who is a staunch proponent of homeopathy is of sound mind. They are obviously lacking in essential skills such as critical thinking and a basic grasp of science.

Some of the judgements NICE make might be questionable, but it still doesn't negate the fact that homeopathy is a load of rubbish.

NICE's errors do not undermine the legitimacy of science, they reinforce it. When they encounter error, they change in the face of the evidence.

There is no evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy, only belief.

As John Diamond pointed out, if homeopath could prove their water memory theory, they'd win the Nobel Prizes for physics and chemistry.

That's a straw man - no-one said it did.

???

Nice's errors - no-one said they did undermine science. Although they do show the absurdity of trying to measure something you can't measure. You can't reduce humanity to a qualy - it's a pretty crap measure. But all that NICE has got.