to think the state should pay part of our private school fees?

[wolvesarejustoldendaydogs]

Don't jump down my throat! It's just a thought.

State schools are overcrowded and there aren't enough good ones. Private schools are expensive.

What if every child had a right to have their state school 'payment' (whatever it costs per child per year') paid to a private school? Obviously parents would have to top-up (probably a considerable amount).

That would create a bit of a market, with more choice, making private schools more affordable and state ones less overcrowded.

Or is it a stupid idea for a reason I will think of soon after pressing 'POST'?

Shagmund- I wish there were an applause icon.

GrahamTribe- but education is so fundamental. It determines (along-side parental support) how those children will get on in life later. It cannot be compared to going to Disneyland or having a car.

I think it is absolutely fair to limit access to private education if my children can't have it too.

Honestly, I think Shagmund expressed it best in her post when she asked how you would explain it to children. It's not about parental CHOICE, it's about all children have equal access to a good education. Private schools give a small minority a great leg up while disadvantaging the children left in the state sector.

I remember reading once that the way to ensure a fair society is to get people to design it without any idea what position they will be taking up in that society.

The people who are keen on being able to buy privilege are usually those with the means to do it.

It's not just about private schools versus state schools though is it. There's a huge discrepancy between good / ok state schools and sink schools. I wonder how many people would still be happy if their only option is a sink school. I understand that schools possibly could get better if everyone sent their child to the local sink school, however in my case plenty of people have, and then pulled their kids out 2 or 3 years down the road because the school was not improving, it was getting worse. And I would be surprised if there weren't some parents on here who hadn't purposely moved house in order to get near a better school rather than take the sink school option. Theres no difference imo. But I do agree education should be equal, and it really isn't on many levels.

It isn't about your children directly improving the lives of other children by their mere presence in the school. Although mine of course are very fab.

It's about the society we make when we educate our children, educate them, segregated by social/financial factors.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Fay. Noblegiraffe, speaking personally, I've always been an advocate of independent education, even when very badly off (though I don't speak for others of course).

Nonquontrol, very good post. Likewise parents who opt for the local state school and then pay for private tutoring.

Grahamtribe yes £2800 per term so £8400 at senior school. We actually live in an relatively expensive area so not sure why so cheap, its a small (ish) school, there is one other in the area at around the same price that is is religious private school then 2 other really big private schools (amazingly academic and 90% english baccalureate) that are a bit more expensive, around £12k per year I think.

I personally preferred the less academic school as the others basically boot you out if you are not up to scratch at 11, there are a lot that don't make it in spite of being there since they are 4, oh and the other on is a girls school so my DSs wouldn't get it

I chose private because the state schools in the area are awful, in particular the secondary schools. Primary schools were ok but are now all failing (bar one) this last few months.

We actually live in a really nice area so I have no idea why this is the case, it is a shame really as personally I would have liked not to pay out but I am taking no chances with their education. My brother was quite intellegent but managed a measly 4 GCSEs not including english, pretty awful really as he was above average but the teaching was awful and the classes were huge! Doesn't give me any faith TBH!

mrsD I am raging never have i ever let a post get me so het up ever deep breaths .

sorry £8400 per year at senior school!

I give everything, every day in a deprived area. I don't need reminding that it's hard work.

Graham, out of interest, when you were 'very badly off' did you see that as a temporary or permanent state of affairs?

I feel positively fortunate. I grew up on a council estate in the 1970s and passed the 11 Plus in the days where you didn't have to buy one hire a tutor. I don't even remember doing it. I went to Grammar school with a real social mix, from dds of single parents on free school meals, to dds of lawyers and doctors.

We never cared about those things. My school memories include laughing about the Serbian black bean soup one friend's father had received in a food parcel (striking miner) and staying in incredibly posh houses for the weekend. It was TRUE social mobility. You got on because you were lucky enough to have a brain and worked hard. Nothing to do with how much money your parents had.

I hate, hate, hate that in many areas of the country, kids can no longer get a place at their local primary and that access to good schools has to be bought by a) moving house b) tutoring c) going private. We are cheating our children and excerbating the gap between those who have and those who have not. It is fecking wrong.

Grahamtribe the difference between moving house and hiring a private tutor is that the state does not subsidise these activities.

mrsjay I feel sorry for those that need to justify their choices by putting others down. It shows insecurity.

Anyone with a brain and a some life experience would dismiss that theory as rubbish.

It simply does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

Deep breaths

well said portofino Oh and we got some sort of tinned meat in out food parcel We had no clue what it was it couldve been anything

noblegiraffe, I very much viewed it as a long term, if not permanent state of affairs.

we don't have a grammar school either, just really shit, disgusting secondary schools that can't seem to even get more than 30% of their pupils 5 GCSEs let alone 5 including maths and english!

In an ideal world there would be no private schools other than for maybe specific things such as sport or music etc and the state schools would be fantastic with the option of free grammar school for the children who pass the 11+. Until joining mumsnet I didn't know that free grammar schools existed in the UK - where are they??

Giraffe, I had noticed that the thread was about the state paying private fees, and my first post said that I disagreed with that but thought it would be fair enought for parents to have tax relief on school fees. The conversation evolved away from that.

I agree with Noquontrol, I think the biggest discrepancy is between the good state schools and the bad state schools. The leap between those is bigger than the leap between good state schools and private schools. That's what is worthy of far more attention.

"a bit of a market, with more choice"

Of course, MORE choice. That's what the education system needs. Cos adding parental choice has worked out so well, hasn't it. Oh, wait...

mrsd you are right of course you are right

And I don't have the means to buy privelidge, I certainly couldn't afford private school. That doesn't mean I don't think it should be an option for other people.

I was in Kent lou. It rather scares me that my friends have children who not only went to same school, but have left and are at Uni now!!! The Grammar schools are still going....

Actually, I don't agree with state grammar schools either. They basically cause similar problems to private schools by creaming off the academically able and leaving the remaining comp to educate the rest of the children.

I believe in truly comprehensive schools with children streamed by ability and with fluidity in movement between the streams.

MsHighwater, there isn't much real choice in the state sector atm. If you live in the catchment of an appalling school and the next nearest is little better the chances are that unless your DC has special grounds for going elsewhere you will have no choice as the further out, better school places will be taken up by those living nearby. Possibly many of those will be DC of parents who bought in the area specifically for it's good local state schools. What the answer to that is, I have no idea, but I know it's not to insist that all DC go to their nearest school as that will just exacerbate the problem.