to be proud of being a white english muslim?

[MoveBiatchGetOutTheWay]

Yes it sounds weird. Point is, some people (muslim and non muslim) are of the opinion you cannot possibly identify as this, but I love our culture and Im enjoying passing it down to my ds (in the form of afternoon tea and gentlemanly manners ;) )

I love my religion, and boy do I love my culture :)

Saudi princess on education in Saudi Arabia:
'The content of the syllabus is extremely dangerous. For one, our young are taught that a woman's position in society is inferior. Her role is strictly limited to serving her family and raising children. They are actually taught that if a woman has to worship anyone other than God it should be her husband; "that the angels will curse her if she is not submissive to her husband's needs". Girls are also strictly forbidden from taking part in any physical education. This is a result of a complete misinterpretation of the Koran. I consider these ideologies to be inherently abusive.

Aside from that, the focus in most of our educational system is on religious subjects such as hadith (sayings attributed to the prophet), Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), tafssir (interpretation of the Koran) and of course the Koran. The attitude is that "learning itself, anything other than religion won't get you into heaven so don't waste your time". I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie. The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.'

On the legal system and need for a basic constitutional framework:
'I would like to see a proper constitution that treats all men and women on an equal footing before the law but that also serves as a guide to our civil laws and political culture.

For example, today in Saudi courts, all decisions are made according to the individual judge's interpretation of the holy Koran. This is entirely dependent on his own personal beliefs and upbringing rather than universally agreed principles or a written constitution as a guide.'

There's lots more, all simple things that would seem really obvious to western people, but there is a huge resistance to the sort of ideas she has in SA.

The picture she paints by implication is one of religion run amok.

Manth, like I've been saying, there is no Islamic state, Saudi is not considered by Muslims an Islamic state.

I know a sister who got groped next to kaba. There are perverts in every religion amd culture.

Judging by the comments of the princess, a woman is more likely to be groped in SA than many other places.

Whether SA is considered Islamic or not is disputed due to the influence of the minority Salafist philosophy. In every respect though, and especially in its laws and the way its legal system operates, the Koran (actually individual interpretations of the Koran, as described by princess Basma) is the basis of how the kingdom operates, or it is claimed as the basis of how the kingdom operates.

Not sure what there is to be proud about there...

White: due to chromosomes, so unless you hand crafted them they are nothing to be proud of.

English: due to parents or your own place of birth, again seems a geographical accident more than something to be proud of.

Muslim: not at all sure what there is to be proud about in subscribing to a particular brand of irrational belief. I suppose there is something in the idea of seriously committing to anything, tenacity I guess, but really you could have chosen something more worthwhile than religion. Oh and it's also almost certainly genetic - so again no real prizes there.

Hurrah for you, your medal is in the post.

OP, you should be grateful, rather than proud.

posie your statement: 'Islam was borne out of the notion that Christianity wasn't strict enough' is factually incorrect.

your statement and previous posts show that your knowledge on islam is completely flawed.

crocko whatever your sentiments, islam is fast spreading in the world today. Despite the negative propaganda and perceptions of oppressed women, it is in fact educated liberal western women who are accepting it as a forward thinking religion. Just look at the MNetters who have converted - they all express themselves as pretty strong-willed women.

Yes, do that. You might be "offended" - but true is true.

HalfPastWine - my post was meant to be lighthearted. The OP seemed to be deliberately controversial. I live in an Arabic area of West London and have done so since 1995. I have many Muslim friends. I was joking. I thought the OP may have learnt Urdu, which is a difficult language. I am learning Arabic.

To the posters who have posted about the manners of some Arabic men. I agree totally. There is a shisha cafe close to my home which has internet hire. It closes at 11.30pm. I used to use it. Until the time I complained about a faulty computer. The owner was fucking rude. He complained to his mates about me in Arabic. Apparently 'I shouldn't have been out late at night without a husband' And 'I was a whore'. I do hope he smelt the glass of wine on my breath from my dinner! I told him in Arabic (I speak Levantine Arabic but am sure he understood). 'Yes, 41, no husband and no kids cos I like to enjoy myself'.
That shut the fucker up.

I too was once told that I shouldn't be out at that time of night. It was 2am and I was coming home from a club. A taxi driver said women like me should be at home. I told him to mind his own business and reminded him who was paying his wages!

In terms of the original post, I kind of know what you mean although I find it hard to express it. When you are part of the mainstream you don't have to be proud to be as I am white for example. You just are and it is accepted.

But when you are in a minority, it is very easy through discrimination to feel lesser in some way unless you try and counteract that. And I think that is why people who are minorities often work hard to establish some sense of pride.

For example, Black History Month to promote a sense of pride in black historical figures. White people don't need to do this because white historical figures are part of the mainstream culture. But black people do.

So in that sense, it is reasonable that you want to develop a sense of pride in your identity.

HalfPastWine - I would have told him to go fuck himself but unfortunately my Palgrave Macmillon Arabic course has not taught me this.

Lesley33 - I understand your viewpoint. But IMO some white Muslim women are a bit too quick to judge other peoples attitudes. In the aftermath of the London bombings I was crossing a road in Paddington. A muslim women with ginger hair was at the other side. She was picking her kids up from the school. I smiled at her beautiful kids. She snarled at me and said 'What is your problem, haven't you seen an English muslim before?' I quipped 'Its your rucksack that worries me' FFS. Okay, she may have had some abuse following the bombings but do not take it out on a hippy chick!

thecook - Although I know lots of Muslims I actually don't know any white Muslims so don't have any experience of this at all. But was just trying to answer the OP's original point as I think some posters miss the point when they talk about well I am white and Christian and don't see that as anything to be proud of.

I personally have some concerns about Islam, but I didn't see the point of the thread as to explore that. I also have experience of men who come from very macho cultures being very sexist and judgemental of women. But I do think this is cultural rather than religious, although some use religion to justify their behaviour.

lesley33 - you are correct. This thread has gone from the OP stating she is a proud English White Muslim to a discussion on Islam! And I understand your point of view about the missing. the point posters who say they are white and Christians. I have read a lot of your posts since I come on Mumsnet and IMO you are very truthful and consistent.

Thank you thecook. I do try and be honest about my opinions as I don't see any point in being otherwise. Although I have changed my mind about stuff as well and said this on threads.

makes me wonder whether Islam makes people evil or whether evil people choose Islam.

Oh bother you just found me out! I am evil!

Posie I am really sorry you have been abused by a group of Muslim men calling you awful names. What they did goes indeed against all the manners Muslims should display. But please do not tar everyone with the same brush. I have been countless times shouted at, laughed at, insulted by words or gestures because I am a Muslim by young British men but I KNOW this is not what the British society is about! If I was to judge all British males by what I have experienced it would hardly be fair would it?

How do you explain the conflict surrounding this religion and it's followers? The scriptures give people the go ahead to be hateful. And I'm not judging all Muslims by the action of a few, I'm judging the religion by the actions of many. Just because I met a nice KKK member once (I haven't) doesn't mean what the KKK stands for isn't hateful, does it?

Erm Islam is a reinvention of Christianity, or rather OT God. If you don't believe in God that's exactly what it is.

MNHQ what was against talk guidelines????????

Hang on a minute....I was deleted when I said about being in Morocco where I was cornered in a shop and never saw any women, as if they weren't allowed out????

I do agree that Islam has many double standards and interpretations. I have had no problems whatsoever living in Qatar as a white Western woman and have a job where almost all of my equals are Qatari men and women, we actually have more female bosses than men in upper middle management, positive discrimination. I have, however experienced plenty of discrimination from the "old school" Muslims for example while waiting for a bus old Egyptian men stopping their cars and opening the door as if I am just going to jump in and have a good time. I have also found the British white and Pakistani Muslims to be the most conservative in general, following a more Saudi attitude than the Gulf Arabs generally. One of our friends, born and bred in Bradford, recently went to the UK for a week and left his wife locked in their apartment. Other Muslim people on the compound called the Police and he was given a warning under women's rights laws. He would never have done that in Bradford but his defence was that his mother would have controlled her in his absence there. Her crime was that she had been looking out of the window and he was convinced she was looking at the garbage men.

My point is that there are stupid idiots in every religion, city town and village in the world. Some are Muslim, some are other religions and some are atheists. Surely we can call a stupid twat a stupid twat whatever he or she believes in?