to want to take my pushchair into my doctors surgery?

[gillquil]

my g.p surgery has just banned pushchairs, I've them a letter that follows, is this the norm? or should I just change our G.P.?

Hello,

I would like to make a complaint about the forthcoming ban on pushchairs in the surgery from the first of April. I am a mother of three, my eldest child has just turned four and we have a double pushchair which we normally use for our two youngest. My youngest child has just turned one, and as is typical for his age, he wants to crawl and climb all the time, he definitely doesn?t want to sit on my lap while I wait, he will however normally wait happily in his pushchair, or sleep in it while we wait or during our appointments. My two year old daughter just wants to run around.

If I am unable to bring my pushchair into the surgery I am going to have to let my son crawl over the floor in the surgery which I can?t imagine being the most hygienic thing to do. Or when he is asleep I will have to wake him, and what if both he and his sister are sleeping? do I really want to wait for my appointment struggling with a sobbing two year old daughter and a crying one year old son, my handbag, and changing bag on the floor or on the seat next to me. All of which, toddler, and baby and baggage have to then be carried into the appointment. I would also like to know what is suggested for mothers who need for example to have their young child with them during say a smear test? Should I leave him to crawl around the floor in the surgery during this?

Parents that I know often rely on being able to entertain a young child or children in a pushchair so that they can speak to their G.P. or nurse for a few minutes uninterrupted. Or the child sleeps on through their appointment and waiting time, and the parent can have a proper conversation or treatment.
I don?t have the option of arranging childcare for the times when I need to come to the surgery, especially as we normally ring at 8 a.m to see what appointment we can get if any for that morning.

I asked about the security of the area that has been designated for pushchairs to be left. As far as the lady I spoke to knew, there is none, it seems that the surgery is relying on the area being ?out of sight.? I disagree anyone walking past will be able to see a row of unsecured pushchairs. Pushchairs cost as I am sure you know an enormous amount of money. We live close by and two of my neighbours have had pushchairs stolen from outside their own front doors in the last six months, and we had a child?s scooter taken ourselves. It was suggested also that I buy a bicycle style lock for our chair, but I can?t see what I would secure it to.

While I can see the need for some sort solution to the congestion in the waiting room, as a result of parents and children who are patients at XXX Surgery using pushchairs, I don?t feel that just telling people their only option is to leave their pushchairs outside, in an unsecured area, and carry in their child or children and changing bags, handbags and who knows even their shopping, is acceptable. In fact I think it?s discriminatory. I have spoken to several mothers today who are patients at XXX, as are their children, and they all agree, and have said they will be putting forward their comments also.

I look forward to your reply and hope that XXX can be a bit more creative in finding a solution that doesn?t leave patients feeling unwelcome.

Thanks Kate.

I just know how I felt when I was in the grips of PND and read threads like this, and it really bother me that people in that position might be reading this and taking away all this stuff about how selfish they are and having it reinforced that actually shouldn't even to try and make an appt.

I find it really troubling that people have said that women shouldn't even ring up and try and talk about it with their practice.

Anyway goodnite all, lets let the trolls argue with themselves as they obviously are never going to listen to the importance of seeing a doctor for ALL
Maybe they will have nightmares about mad pushchair weilding aliens

Night

no pfb babies here, just 5 normal but fabulous to me ones, who have their good points and their bad, like all people not just children.

i also dont think its that hard to understand that many toddlers will behave or sit still for longer strapped in a pushchair with snack and toys than if you get them out.

and as for stealth boasting, oh yes we all love to brag about our mh issues, who wouldnt!

and everything that sardinequeen has just said, we have no idea who is reading this thread and it always worries me that there could be mothers out there who are really struggling and crap like this will just make them feel ten times worse, as someone who has been there i know full well how threads like this made me feel a number of years ago and its not nice.

Do you know, when I initially clicked on this thread, I expected to be on the side of H&S concerns. I might still find myself supporting any individual surgery's decision, depending on layout, but it seems clear to me that in this thread, quite a few would back a pushchair-ban out of ideology, even in a waiting room the size of Asda! And yet, they're honestly wondering why that attitude provokes disagreement.

I know I said I was going away FOR EVER but this has really got under my skin and I can't stop myself from coming back and telling you why.

The attitude of the "ban buggies" people (with the snotty subtext of "the rest of you have an over developed sense of entitlement") comes with a footnote of "except exceptions, of course".
What that displays is an incredibly entitled sense that there can and will always be exceptions, and that real people (ie themselves) will never have any problems.
I really really strongly do not feel that way. I think that policies should work for everyone without having to make exceptions. I do not think I deserve exceptions, I feel uncomfortable asking for them and hardly ever do, even when I was 41 weeks pregnant with SPD. I think many other people feel the same way. Airily assuming that exceptions can always be made, that people will be around to help, that rules can be bent or broken for you, comes from a completely different mindset to mine, which is: you get on with it, you follow the rules and you cope, and if you can't, you are not welcome and you must stay at home. I am not the only one.

The basis on which our NHS should be run is that all policies specifically cater for everyone. You can ask people to be considerate ("leave your push chair outside if you can"); but you cannot start from the premise that people will be told to do things that they may not be able to do (for whatever reason). You just can't. And if you don't get that, you are probably the sort of idiot who doesn't think rules apply to you and makes life difficult and stressful for everyone else.

So do ou think health and safety rules don't have to apply to you then vezzie?

I appreciate what you are saying, and in an ideal world that's how it would be. Bit we don't live in an ideal world and some buildings aren't suitable to allow everyone to bring in their pushchair. Some people aren't considerate enough to leave their pushchair outside if they can and do need to be told there's a ban.

There are always going to be exceptions to rules.

No, you fool, I think they DO apply to me and to EVERYONE which is why they should be WRITTEN TO BE FAIR and should not require exceptions to make life workable because that is just a charter for entitled people to stomp about yakking into their mobile phones in quiet train carriages, bringing their horrible children into smart grown up restaurants etc etc and going to the dr with gay abandon, while people who read signs and aren't overflowing with unjustified confidence sob at home with pnd, or spd, or excema, or whatever they have.

but it seems clear to me that in this thread, quite a few would back a pushchair-ban out of ideology, even in a waiting room the size of Asda! And yet, they're honestly wondering why that attitude provokes disagreement

That is ridiculous, if it was the size of ASDA there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

What is more clear to me on this thread is some women want the right to shove their push chairs into spaces the size of toilet cubicles regardless of anyone else, H&S regulations, fire safety, insurance considerations etc etc, and don't want to see the problems with trying to expand or move the huge number of old surgeries in the UK. And that this buggy-access is also apparently the best cure for some fairly serious mental problems.

And they're honestly wondering why that attitude provokes incredulity :o

There's really no ned to call me a fool.

I have said I agree that what you suggest would be the ideal, but as some surgeries are based in buildings that just cannot cope with everyone's buggies, they have to do something. There isn't the money to rebuild every unsuitable surgery in the country, and it is foolish to keep going on about what should happen when it simply can't happen.

Everyone is entitled to NHS care, but we are not entitled to take our
Buggies everywhere, no matter how preferable it might be. Most waiting rooms are quite small and not practical when full of buggies.

It's not about victimising anyone with MH issues, or anything like it. It's about common sense and the ways in which a space can be most safe and comfortable for the greatest possible amount of people.

I actually agree with SQ in principle.
I just think that the waiting rooms are generally too small, there are too many people with different ailments, sight impairment, hearing impairment, mobility issues, dementia, what have you, to house all buggies in addition to zimmer frames, wheelchairs, crutches, etc, toys from the play area....

I think, pondering this, I agree with what SQ is trying to say, just not the way it is sad.

So, in theory, I agree with Whatmeworry, also.

What we need is a blanket "buggy ban exemption certificate" added to the patiens files.

I do apologize for my wonderpet analogy. That was very silly.
I also apologize for saying that women with difficulty coping with her children should possibly not have had so many. That is like locking the stable door after the horse bolted. Again, very silly.

EXACTLY WHAT VEZZIE SAID.

Read her first post. Just read it.

If there is a BAN then that is a BAN which means NO EXCEPTIONS which means some people CANNOT ACCESS THE SERVICE.

People who assume that there will be exceptions for people who need them and all you need to do is ask are the ones with the huge sense of entitlement NOT vice versa.

Yes Vezzie there are some real fools on here.

The women who assume that the ban APPLIES TO THEM and act on it (in some cases by stopping going to the doctor) are not the ones with the sense of entitlement.

People are all cock-eyed.

No, it's not about space and practicality and all that.
Obviously there will sometimes be tension between pushchairs and waiting rooms. Everyone gets that. What this difference of opinion is about is a very important principle about how that tension is managed.

Do you assume that you can limit people to manage your needs, and take for granted that they will have the wherewithal to exceed those limits if they have to, to manage their needs; or do you attempt to take an overview and manage everyone's needs at the same time, fairly.

If you are the first sort of person you think a blanket ban in reasonable, and people will wriggle out of it if they have to; if you are the second sort of person, you think you have a responsiblity not to make people wriggle, and you recognise that the best at wriggling out of things, and those most temperamentally inclined to do so, are not necessarily the most deserving.

Ironically the first sort of person are all on this thread accusing the second sort of being "entitled" which is PRECISELY the wrong way round.

Slightly pointless and odd binary there I think.

I dont see it as being unusual or unreasonable for surgeries to ask you to leave pushchairs outside. It may be less convenient in many cases, but so are lots of things. I did used to wish I could bring mine in, I also wished there was space to leave it up in my hallway, but there wasn't.

What do you actually think they should say? Please leave pushchairs outside unless it's easier for you not to and you'd rather not?

Vezzie I see your point about some mums with MH problems having difficulty in asking if there is a ban for an exceptions to be made in their case.

I am in this situation currently, I have asked for an exception to be made, they work with it, the surgery doesn't have any problems with it. I don't feel that I am somone who rides roughshod over rules, if the odd person does it when they don't need it so what, so long as the people who do need to access the service can do so.

However, in some surgeries buggies can't fit in, my previous surgery was like this, I wouldn't physically have been able to get in with one in the proper entrance ban or no ban. There are H&S issues with this. Ideally surgeries should be able to accomodate buggies but at present not all can, or accomodate a number of them. Surgeries need to balance H&S isues with access for all, how they do this will vary from surgery to surgery.

I like the idea that someone raised previously in displaying prominently in the surgery, literature and website, the details of someone to contact if access would be a problem. I realise that some people at some times may find this difficult and it becomes a barrier. Maybe other mums could raise it as a general concern so that the surgery (and patients group?) can develop some solutions to assist all people e.g. access through other doors, rescheduling clinics (one I used to go had all vaccinations once a month at the same time - an awful experience even when I only had one child). these could also be publicised on the website etc I don't claim to have all the answers and many will disagree with what i have suggested.

'There isn't the money to rebuild every unsuitable surgery in the country'

See, I don't get this. Sure, there's a recession and spending has to come down but money is still being spent on defence, roads, political campaigns and a whole heap of other stuff that really doesn't contribute to society's long term health and wellbeing. What it really comes down to is priorities. From reading this thread, it seems that mothers and children are still treated as second class citizens. Thankfully, attitudes towards people with disabilities and the elderly seem to be improving but mothers are still treated as the lowest of the low, who have brought their situation on themselves by [gasp] having sex and procreating, and who should get on and deal with the shame of their situation without expecting any help from the rest of society. It's positively victorian.

See, I don't get this. Sure, there's a recession and spending has to come down but money is still being spent on defence, roads, political campaigns and a whole heap of other stuff that really doesn't contribute to society's long term health and wellbeing. What it really comes down to is priorities. From reading this thread, it seems that mothers and children are still treated as second class citizens. Thankfully, attitudes towards people with disabilities and the elderly seem to be improving but mothers are still treated as the lowest of the low, who have brought their situation on themselves by [gasp] having sex and procreating, and who should get on and deal with the shame of their situation without expecting any help from the rest of society.

Yet Again.

The reason buggy bans are coming in is that smaller surgeries are being told that for H&S, fire risk and insurance reasons they have to leave space. Buggies take up a lot of space. Hence the bans.

The cost of converting/upgrading/moving a surgery is mahoosive. The state is skint. The vast majority of mothers and children and other people will cope so no one will willingly pay extra, so it ain't going to happen. The chances of rescinding H&S and insurance legislation is negligible.

So what is your solution, apart from wailing about the right to shove a buggy into a cramped surgery any time you desire?

I don't think mothers with children are being treated as second class citizens at all.

Money is being spent on things that don't contribute to society's long term health and well being, and I agree that it should be. Much more needs to be spent on achieving that. But when you look at the health service, every group of people could claim they are bing treated as second class. For example, asthmatics that can't get free prescriptions, diabetics that don't have access to enough clinics to help them manage, the elderly who are accused of bed blocking and don't get the care they need to help them eat or toilet in hospital, the general population that have a one off problem yet still have to wait months for an operation, people with disabilities that don't get enough physio, or access to an OT, or a decent wheelchair that suits their needs.

Again, in an ideal world mothers would never be made to feel like there is any sort of barrier to them accessing the GP, but there are fairly simple solutions that could help them. Like allowing them to be an exception to a buggy ban rule if they need to. If only the other people i mentioned who have barriers to decent treatment could get round shortfalls so easily!

If they were going to put more money into the NHS to prevent anyone facing a barrier to treatment, which I dearly wish they would, providing big enough surgeries so there is space for pushchairs would be quite low on the list of priorities.

Why not suggest a "one buggy" policy? The problem is almost certainly that if there are several buggies in at the same time it creates a potential H&S issue, and may also create problems for people with mobility issues.

Why not suggest a system by which you "book" your buggy in at the time you make an appointment, and if the single buggy space is already taken then you have the option of making alternative arrangements or making a different appointment?

so Vezzie and others, to recap
You think the solition is to rebuild the majority of GP surgeries in the country?
May I enquire where the money and the land for this is going to come from?You realise GPs own their own premises.How, are we going to make them build larger waiting rooms without funding it from the NHS .In which case this will reduce money available for patient treatment and mean that public money is being spent enhancing privately owned assets

another thought. Have you never seen aid oss centres in 3rd world countries s where injured ill and staving people walk days with theirchildren to access healthcare.
I wonder what they would say to the whiners on here who can't mange their own children without a buggy fora few minutes!

I think this is the solution

"I think that surgeries should be aware of these accessibility issues and advise parents that if they need assistance with access then to speak to X and they will find a solution."

I simply cannot understand why anyone thinks this is wrong. The suggestion that women with accessibility problems should not even ask, which has been said on here, is disgraceful.

I think some on here are positively GLEEFUL at the idea of women with young children not being able to access healthcare in situations of mental health breakdown, illness and other situations.

It is well known that pregnancy, childbirth and caring for young children can take a toll on physical and mental health. To be super-pleased that women who may be experiencing these sorts of problems for the first time in their lives cannot reasonably access treatment is mind-boggling.