To think that a Jehovah's Witness has no right to demand that I respect his beliefs when he's just rung my doorbell to bore me with his

[CrockoDuck]

Happy to respect the rights of people to have their beliefs, but I reserve the right to point out factual inaccuracies and scientific ignorance when it's brought to my home.

I am always very polite.

I leave them on the doorstop, run back inside and emerge brandishing a pile of books of my books.

These include
Advanced Candleburning Rituals
Vodou - Visions and Voices of Haiti
The Element Encycopedia of 5000 Spells
The Modern Witchcraft Spellbook
Voodoo Hoodoo Spellbook.

They usually. disappear pretty quickly!

DonkeyTeapot I'm glad that things have worked out well for your mum, I really am. However, either hers is a case that has slipped under the radar (ie. they do not realise your brother is disfellowshipped/disassociated), or she has a congregation that is not following central guidelines (which would definitely be rectified by the central governing body if discovered).

When it comes to the JW religion, all rules and standards are set out by a a central authority (the 'Governing Body'), and if congregations, elders, or individuals fall out of line with this guidance, and the Governing Body is made aware of it, they will be expected to remediate their behaviour or face disciplinary action (up to and including disfellowshipping).

The rules are the same internationally, apply to every congregation, and are set out by this one select group of people (the Governing Body), and there are not meant to be variations in practice. Congregations or individuals that are operating 'outside of the rules' could be pulled up on this behaviour at any time.

The official JW stance on people who are baptized and then leave the religion is that they should be shunned completely (not even greeted). And people who do not follow official guidelines risk being disfellowshipped themselves. As linked previously, this can all be seen on the official website, and is not just my own anecdotal experience (although I also have that).

Donkey, while there are JW's who associate with their JW-no-longer children, (our hall shared with a Spanish congregation, where the cultural ties to family are much stronger, and they drove our elders crazy because they would still associate with their family members who had left the religion by one means or another, and our elders would make sure that their special needs talk was always about how you don't associate with JW's that have left the religion) your mother would definitely be the exception to the rule around here. The Elders would definitely consider her bad association in every hall I've been in (and I'm American, and have lived in several different states) and if she persisted, she herself would be disfellowshipped. Your mother is definitely going against what the Governing Body has stated many times in the literature, which is quite the rarity.

Actually, this made me remember that there was a Police inquiry into the religion for hate speech in the UK last year because their magazine The Watchtower called those who left the religion mentally diseased

Yes, perhaps my family is the exception.

Totally agree with WhiteShores and MmmeBucket. There are definite sanctions for even speaking to an apostate. The congregation could be seriously disciplined for tolerating this kind of thing and individuals can be and are disfellowshipped for keeping in contact with people who have left.

My best friend within the religion had to cut all ties with her teenage sister because the girl, who had been baptised as a young teen, kept "bad associations" and started behaving like a normal teenager. The girl was disfellowshipped and my friend had to cut her off completely, even to the extent of not being able to acknowledge her sisters children when she had them.

Donkey, it may be that, after all this time, your mum's elders don't actually know that your brother is an ex-JW and that is why no-one says anything about it. I have moved house, now, and get some JW callers at the door because they don't realise that I am an "apostate".

I'm actually shocked to hear that children are being baptised now. When I was involved, it was quite rare even for a younger teen because of the depth of knowledge and obedience that was expected and because of the level of commitment required. You had to be able to demonstrate that you had moved your entire life into line with the dictats of the GB. You also had to have spent time as an unbaptized publisher, but I suppose if a child is born into it, they will have been doing all that since they were babies.

There is no free thought within JWs, everything is laid down by the men of the Governing Body and if a JW doesn't bring themselves into line and it comes to the attention of the men in charge, there will be sanctions.

What a nasty way to treat people.

Im not going to comment on JW as a religion because i know very little about it.
However i dont think there is any need to be rude or abusive. I just say no thanks and close the door.
I find them far less annoying than the bloody window people that seem to descend weekly, and phone my bloody house too. Now they really piss me off

I think this tangent off the thread has gone on long enough, so in full and final response: My mum is still in the same congregation that we were all part of, as a family. They know me, my brother and my other siblings. Some of them came to my grandad's funeral. They are the congregation that disfellowshipped him, they know. There has been no disciplinary action. Maybe there should have been and it has slipped through the net. Maybe not. You can tell me as many times as you like what SHOULD have happened according to the rules, but my point that this is not the case 100% of the time still stands.

I am so done with the ignorance about this group.

The hurt they have caused my family is heartbreaking.

If you leave or are dis-fellowshipped you will be shunned.

you will lose your community.

Feminine - sounds awful - being shunned. Like an act of violence!

They came to me door once and asked if I was frightened and concerned with the area, violence etc, was I worried about the escalation in in crime. I said no, that I found it a nice, safe area but I didn't like that they were using tactics that might frighten someone or prey on someone a it vulnerable. I usually just say no and take their leaflet and read it to find out more about what they believe. My husbands lovely old aunt became one years ago and has now lost contact with the whole family. I just hope she is happy, she was a simple, vulnerable lady.

JW are a mixed bag, but I've had fantastic conversations with the very neatly turned out young mormons who come calling (perhaps they do have the true religion - they always seem to come on nice sunny days when I don't mind standing at the door having a chat).

I also quite approve of a religion that encourages and supports the younger members of their congregation to travel a bit - since I assume that it's not all door to door and they get a chance to do a bit of sight-seeing too.

Donkeyteapot, you are the exception, not the rule.
I have a friend who is going through this now, it is causing untold hurt to her family, some of whom have suffered mental breakdown over the treatment

Animation, it is awful and can be much worse than an act of violence. Because you have to cut all ties with those outside the religion when you join, even your family as much as possible, if you leave for any reason, you are left completely alone. You have no friends and, if you were brought up in the faith, no family. You basically have to start your life all over again. Also, because of the whole Armageddon thing, and the special language and frame of reference that JWs use, it can be really, really hard to adjust to life on the outside. There is the constant fear and guilt, you have to change the way you think almost completely.

When I was involved, the religion dominated my whole life, every aspect. Education was discouraged as worldly and to be avoided in favour of seeking knowledge of the true God and his people, getting a decent job was discouraged as it took time away from the preaching work, having children was discouraged as well, because the end was near and the preaching work was more urgent. The GB even published a series of articles in the magazines telling married couples what kind of sex was acceptable to God - missionary position good, oral sex/mutual masturbation bad kind of thing. I also knew young people who had interviews with the congregation elders because they were being tempted by Satan to masturbate and that ungodly habit had to be broken before more serious things happened to the kids (it is a disciplinary offence.) It was also current light that women shouldn't have their hair cut in a bob because it would make them go bald!

many Witnesses choose to put on a front for as long as possible so that they look as if they still believe, just to avoid being shunned. it's really sad.

I tell them I'm a Gay Catholic,divorcee. Blows their minds......

DonkeyTeapot I completely agree with you that it may not happen 100% of the time, although this is due to slipping through the net one way or another, especially if you are lucky enough not to have your entire extended family enmeshed in the religion (in which case someone will report behaviour like your mother's pretty quickly).

However, for people to have the impression that this is anywhere near the norm is, quite frankly, very dangerous.

Just as someone might cross the road with their eyes shut and not get run over, it doesn't mean people are wrong to advise them they have a high chance of getting run over (because they do). And while I am glad for your very lucky experience (I so wish I had the same), I would hate for people to believe they are not at (high) risk of shunning, should they get baptized and later decide to leave.

Shunning is the central authoritative JW stand, and the vast majority of congregations follow this to the letter (their activity is monitored by the Governing Body by means of travelling elders called circuit and district overseers).

Those who don't follow central rules are at risk of being pulled up at any time (or disfellowshipped themselves), so your mother's continuing freely as she is is by no means guaranteed. Although I sincerely hope she stays untouched, and your family remains spared the heartbreak.

this whole shunning thing is enough to make me very wary, really changes the tone that they are lovely and harmless. Anyone getting involved with them should be totally aware of this aspect.

I now simply refuse the leaflet and say that I don't believe in the supernatural or that I am an atheist. Always try to smile and be nice, but be firm. Never had a problem - in fact they don't seem to call at all anymore.

FIL and his brother are pretty bitter about JW due to their late father being converted shortly after the death of their mother - who then left nearly all his estate to the JW.

My SIL found my father chatting to two in his home a few months ago. SIL was bringing back my very ill mother from an appointment (she has now died). I do worry that he is vunerable to thing kind of thing now, but if they are able to give him some happiness...

I really don't like being cold called in this way. I have found jw very hard to get rid of. They don't seem to resspond well to the I have my own beliefs and I'm not interested in changing them to yours, method. Luckily I haven't been pested by them in ages, but that is how I view them, pests.

StressedHEmum. Sounds horrendous! But well done you for retaining your soul and getting away from their control and despite their intent on punishing you.

You are an inspiration.

I live near a Kingdom Hall so we get plenty of visits, always on a Saturday morning. I just tell them that I have my own beliefs and they are happy to leave me a leaflet and go. Last time they said that I had such a nice smile they didn't mind being rebuffed. Flattery did not get them anywhere.

My mother, however, finds it hard to say no and always ends up with either JW or Mormons in the front room having a cup of tea. She has no intention of converting to either but she's too polite to say so outright. She even reads every copy of the Watchtower before handing it back next time.

I think knocking on doors is exceptionally rude.

Interrupting people in their own property in order to try and convert them to your beliefs should be illegal imvho.

Op yanbu.

I'll never forget the call we had around Halloween(could have been Halloween),my dc were dressed up. Smug little JW boy on my own bloody doorstep saw my dc and started commenting to his mother in full ear shot how wrong it was that they were wearing said outfits.

The arrogance of it!!!!!

In my own home if I want to correct inaccuracies to a load of bunkham errrr I will as it's my home!!!!!If you don't like it,don't call again.

Sorry...haven't been back sooner.

Right. So doorbell went and I answered. He said "Hello. May I ask about your relationship with Jesus?"

I said, "Don't have one. I'm an atheist. Bye". Went to close the door and he said very patronisingly...."Oh you're an atheist. Ha ha. Well, what do you think is going to happen when you die, then?" His tone irritated me, so I bit and got into a discussion.

Let him launch into the watchmaker analogy, lack of evidence for evolution, the Bible is all the proof we need, and god of the gaps regarding the Big Bang.

So put him right - sticking the the facts. And to those commenters suggesting this was me giving my opinion - nope. My lack of belief is based on the facts at our disposal - the FACT of evolution, the inconsistency of the Bible (and the Christian habit of cherry picking), the obvious logical fallacy of thinking that because we design things like watches, this means that everything else is designed too ("Are you telling me you see no difference between a watch and a pebble?" etc) and that just because the cause (if there was one) of the BB is not something science can currently explain does not mean we must default to "Godmusthavedunit".

He tried to interrupt all the way through - but I ploughed on as he had done.

When I finished he accused me (and Richard Dawkins!) of being arrogant, insensitive and disrespectful of people's personal beliefs etc.

I said, if your beliefs are so personal - why knock on my door and bother me with them? This is my PERSONAL home. And I told him that, while I respect his right to his belief, I do not respect the beliefs themselves because they are fatuous and childish.

Then he said he's pray for me, and I shamelessly quoted Hitch and said "Thanks. And I'll think for you".

And closed the door in his sad looking face.