If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them.

[MrsArchieTheInventor]

"If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them" [and] "child benefit and tax credits should be abolished" with the mantra that if she choses to be childless she should not be forced to pay for the 'breeding' choices of others.

A Facebook friend of mine. I didn't retaliate.

"endless amounts of money"

You do make me chuckle Outraged.

Yes, really.

And I can assure you I'm not a Tory lover.

I don't think CB is the issue, it's all the other benefits. CB on its own is never going to enable people to bring up children without any other form of income. Personally, I think CB should be universal but limited to two children.

why didn't you respond to her given. she's a friend?
instead of respnding on mn
it just dribble that I've heard many times,doesn't irk me

I can't believe some people make comparisons to the third world. Many women over there do not have the choice not to get pregnant. Contraception isn't available and even if it is, religious beliefs may not allow them to use it or their partners refuse to wear a condom. You only have to look at the spread of HIV to know this. I'm sure there are women carrying their 3rd, 4th or 5th child who are bloody knackered and starving who would pray to be able to take contraception.

Realistically though who acutally can afford to have children when it supposedly costs 200k to raise a child to the age of 21. I presume people who spout this nonsense think that only the upper middle classes and super rich should be allowed to have kids. Besides , what exactly dot these people think should happen to the kids of those who 'cant afford them'?

But if none of the lower classes bred, there would be no lower classes. Who would sweep the streets and do the menial jobs? Where would the rich find their staff?

Tethers, I don't think it's about saving money. I think it's about encouraging personal responsibility. If the parents went on to have a third or fourth child then they would have to get a job to support their children, obviously. But I don't think people would go on to have third or fourth children if they knew they would have no way of supporting them.

My retaliation was along the lines of 'if economics continued to grow at the rate of the last decade, society would be reach a new grimness if only the rich were afforded to breed, with those at the bottom of the 'rich ladder' soon finding themselves in the very position that they advocated as 'unsuitable' to breed due to being thrust to the bottom of the 'rich ladder' by way of their own economics.

Ok, so presumably you are gifted with the knowledge as to whether a family have chosen to have that child or whether that child is an accident?

Because of course, life is so simple that even with all this lovely contraception around there can't possibly be any accidents and if there are, then 2 accidents is out of the question isn't it? Those who get pregnant whilst on the pill are lying and those who get pregnant whilst using condoms are just stupid?

How about this right, instead of blaming the poorest of society for our economical problems (because actually those claiming benefits are just the tip of the iceberg with tax avoiders costing much more) we actually look at those who are properly responsible? Or are the poor just easy targets for your facist agendas?

Interesting that no-one has said whether disabled parents on benefits are exempt from these rules.

Of course accidents happen/circumstances change etc and without a doubt the benefit system needs to be in place to act as a safety net. But I agree with ^ - there is a big difference between actively ttc and life happening. Personally I couldn't go through with a termination and I think there is a moral duty to support people who need a bit of help.

But I ask this: given the fact that support is so meagre, if the safety net was used only when it was needed (ie if people were able to be a bit more stable financially before choosing to ttc) would that mean that there is more money available to get to those who go through general shit that life can sometimes spread?

I don't mean to be provocotive in saying this, i'm genuinely interested in what others think!

I waited til I was solvent and could afford kids
planned it that way
finished degree,postgraduate and established in work in order to afford ft childcare

most mums delay parenthood til can afford it,average age primagravida is 30 yo

I think it's about £56 per child per week.

The FB friend has just replied 'abortion is an option these days'.

I'm genuinely shocked! I thought she had more about her!

i think the state should support up to 2. if someone cannot afford to support their existing children, they need to focus on supporting their existing family

So that's a grand total of £70 per week.

These people are fucking well rolling in it! I bet they put all their benefit money on the bed and roll around on it, laughing and throwing the twenty pound notes in the air saying "It was totally worth having more than two children for all this luvverly loot"

I dont see whats wrong with the first part, financial planning should be a big part of TTC.

Sadly its not for many hence why the system needs overhaul, whilst we throw money at people for having children things will not improve. Yes contraception can fail but that doesnt absolve the person of financially providing for a child if they choose to have the child. The state should have a short term safety net, not a lifetime of supporting a persons lifestyle choice.

We do need children to keep the cycle of life going, but we need children who will work and pay taxes not simply generations of repeated claimers.

I think mrstired that your kind of thinking will soon lead to the notion that only the rich should be entitled to have children. That being poor is all the fault of the poor and they shouldn't be allowed to breed.

This is what this is really about, blaming the poor for being poor and not the government for awarding contracts to foreign firms, taking away college grants and putting more people on the dole.

So you would soon have a situation where a couple who had to live on benefits, who couldn't get work are then told that they cannot have children. You are taking away their fundamental rights to be parents.

If your dh lost his job tomorrow and you lost yours, if you both had to rely on benefits and weren't even getting replies to your job applications, would you then just accept that you couldn't have any children because that was the hand that life dealt you? Whilst those earning £70k pa could have 6 or 7 kids.

halfpastwine - so if the man refuses to wear a condom or doesn't believe in contraception for religious reasons that's acceptable here too right?

Honestly, though, for a lot, they will never be earning enough to be able to afford to have children. Childcare/giving up work to look after young children just would not be feasible for them, without help.

throwing money at people having children ahahahahahahahahahaha.

Abhorrent beyond words

Rhubarb, I have already said that both my children were accidents, and I said on another thread earlier today that one of them was conceived while I was on the pill. Im well aware that accidents happen.

But I could have chosen to go back to work sooner, the father of my children had a job, and would have tried to get another one if he'd had to. Our family would have helped if we had no other option.

There are other ways of generating income to support your own childre other than claiming benefits.

I'm in favour of WTC btw.

Disabled parents are a separate issue. Disabled people should get a lot more support than they currently do, and that should include enough to have a child if they want to. But that is something that should be connected with the disability, not the child.

Yes MrsArchie, I was told about abortion when I was pg too.

I wonder why you are telling us what your friend is happily posting on facebook?

You know, despite my best efforts, I am genuinely upset by this thread. To think there are people who would rather I aborted dd than claim a little support from the state whilst I needed it is just too much today.

FFS, we are all bloody humans but the way some people are treated, you really wouldn't think so would you? I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to leave this thread. I'll only become too emotionally involved.

It's mad.

I haven't done my statistic for a while so I think I'll just StatPlop it here.

2.7 million unemployed.

463,000 vacancies.

But this is always, always ignored, in favour of a bit more bashing of the poor - because that feeling of superiority is so warming.

How much money is enough money?

It's an unanswerable question.

I do find it quite annoying when people have several children and then moan their heads off re. the cost of things.

So... it's not unreasonable to have kids however much money you have, but it is a bit unreasonable to have children and THEN decide that they are a bit expensive.