If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them.

[MrsArchieTheInventor]

"If you can't afford children you shouldn't have them" [and] "child benefit and tax credits should be abolished" with the mantra that if she choses to be childless she should not be forced to pay for the 'breeding' choices of others.

A Facebook friend of mine. I didn't retaliate.

Whatme, got it in one

Children not being left by the state to starve under any circumstances is a Good Thing.

my kids

aw, snuggly wuggly luffly DCs they are too usual

INRATS.

I'd just like to say I've no problem with people on benefits having children. My child has brought an immense amount of joy into my own life. I'm happy to pay for other people to have the same experiences.

I'm pretty left wing, and I think this issue is fairly grey. I don't think onlw wealthy people should have children, I don't think that the poor should be forced to stop having children. I appreciate that life situations change, but it is irresponsible to have too many children you know you will struggle to afford

Yes but the real issue is not the few people that farrow without thought but that those very few are being blamed for this country's downfall.

Its a bit like saying 'people shouldnt steal'. Well of course they shouldnt.
The fact that some do is not a good enough reason to stick everyone who looks a bit grubby into prison.

Also I'm complaining about the clowns who think that the deficit can be eliminated simply be selling Trident and taxing a few bankers. Sounds appealing but just dreamy nonsense.

My Phd states that I'm less of a clown than you.
On consultation with various financial groups, KPMG, Promontory, et al. It would appear that a reduction in the laughable MOD spending would indeed have an impact. Oh, add to that the National Audit Office.
Yes it may be dreamy to cut Trident, or is that just you not willing to listen to a slightly more left wing point of view? We should cut trident, and use the money elsewhere, we don't need it and the idea of a nuclear deterrent is outmoded.
I'm sorry you feel you can only afford the one child. I'm sure if you used the state facilities available for education and health, you may find you are able to afford another, if you so wish. Choices are choices, mine are mine, and I chose not to put my disabled husband in a care home, and yours are yours.

My Phd states that I'm less of a clown than you

Depends what it's in, and whether you bought it or earned it :o

On consultation with various financial groups, KPMG, Promontory, et al. It would appear that a reduction in the laughable MOD spending would indeed have an impact. Oh, add to that the National Audit Office.

Of course it has an impact, just not a very big one or a very early one compate to the size of the problem. I gave you the nuimbers upthread but to repeat:

Total Govmnt Spend c £700bn pa
Total Benefits Spend c £160bn pa
Total Health & Education spend c£ 160 bn pa
Total Defence spend pa c £40bn pa
Total Trident bill over 5 - 10 years c £20m, ie c £4 pa
Total (Greenpeace estimated ) trident and submarine systems cost over 20 years c £100m, ie c £5m pa

As you can see, £5m pa on Trident has an impact, just not a very big one. £40m on removing the entire Defence budget has a bigger impact, but still not huge - c 6% of Government spend.

And lets be clear, we can't even afford this £700bn, we are still borrowing money as the tax base can't pay that much.

By the way, the total spend on the loans we have taken out to date is c £40bn pa. We have them at a very low interest rate, mainly based on the belief by the lenders that we will not overspend our ability to pay.

But go ahead, spend spend spend until we get Greeced.

Then you will find out what benefit cuts can really look like

I have a few issues with some of the suggestions made in terms of practicality.

'the productive should be encouraged to breed'

Firstly how would you define productive?
Secondly how exactly would you encourage them to breed.
Thirdly only those whose children have already reached adulthood and have not had a drastic drop in fortunes between their conception and them becoming adults can guarantee that they will be able to support their DC financially to adulthood totally without help.

As for the comment about children coming from generations of benefit claimants effectively not amounting to anything. I have many issues with this.

Firstly it was stated as a an absolute and 'statistically more likely' does not equal definitely will. Some will do very well.

However the biggest issue I have with this is that for every person who tells a child they will amount to nothing the odds increase that the child will believe they will amount to nothing. When they believe this it becomes 100x harder for them to improve their lot and become a productive member of society. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

If as members of society we want them to do their best and become employed hopefully without relying on benefits then we shouldn't be looking down on them, we definitely should be telling them or even suggesting to them that they cannot succeed. We should be telling them they can do better. What's more we should be telling them how they can do better.

Yes this will take time to filter through.

Yes I know it won't work with every child.

BUT and it is a very big but if we act in such a manner that we actively perpetuate the cycle we become as much a part of the problem as their so called feckless parents. In some ways we become morally worse than those feckless parents because we are not the ones without hope. You see some of these parents in this benefits culture didn't chose it because they wanted it but because they were brought up to believe that it was all the could amount to they were brought up with no hope and when hope is gone there is nothing. Life without hope is not nice believe me. So instead of making snap judgments about them (especially if we want change) we should try and show the children there is hope, we should try and show the parents there is hope. We shouldn't stop trying just because we can't change everybody. We shouldn't stop trying because we can't attain perfection. Where would society be today if everybody in history had given up because of that.

TSC I have a problem with that, I don't think I know how to farrow. Can anyone enlighten me?

Whatme
I really don't comprehend why you feel the need to patronise me to such a great extent.

I also wonder how you think you are making people on benefits feel when you state:Then you will find out what benefit cuts really look like
Don't you think that some of us have enough on our plates without you coming up with stuff like that? Obviously not, patronising and threatening in one post, are you a cabinet member?

I agree 'Then you will find out what benefit cuts can really look like' is very patroniing and depressing. Most people don't want benefits they just end up desperate and need a bit of help.

As for the PhD comment, there is a whole middle ground between idiot and genius you know. I don't have a PhD either and although I am apparently a feckless blah blah can't be bothered repeating) I do know some things, I do have feelings and I do have experience of various things in life.

BTW I can't remember who said what now.

Wow is this thread still rumbling on!

I think whatme probably felt the need to explain herself after your comment "My Phd states that I'm less of a clown than you", which, to be fair, came across as somewhat condescending.

I think hecubas is right, we need to raise young peoples aspirations, and to break the cycle of generational benefit dependency.

I really don't comprehend why you feel the need to patronise me to such a great extent.

Umm...you were the one who wrote "My Phd states that I'm less of a clown than you"

Now if that is not just a tad patronising....

As to the rest, I don't give a monkeys about how hurt you are, I give a monkeys about what is a real danger. If you don't wnat Greece or Spain to happen here, you need to start getting real, now.

I have a problem with that, I don't think I know how to farrow. Can anyone enlighten me?

To farrow one needs a ball, or preferably two.....

Good grief! People have committed suicide because they are so scared of benefit changes.

Greece and Spain aren't going to happen here, we're nowhere near it.

Phd comment was because people called me a clown. Something I do not have time to be.

Greece and Spain aren't going to happen here, we're nowhere near it.

Why don't you use your PhD and do the comparative debt to income ratios. Go on.....

Will you be happy then ? when benefits are cut even more?

You sound so caring

I have. That's why I'm aware of the fact that it won't happen here. Not even with worst case scenario long term forecast.

Will you do a happy dance when more and more people can't afford to make ends meet?

Say I told you so ,and rub your rich little hands with glee?

Well obviously you can't limit help to a certain amount of children, or to a certain set of circumstances.

In my group of friends, the thing that seems to be said most often is that the system is unfair because if they work to earn a wage, with each child they have the money they have is reduced. On benefits, the opposite is true so the more children you have, the higher the amount you will receive, which doesn't sit right with my working friends.

I have to say I think the welfare system is brilliant, and in an ideal world would love to see higher payments for the disabled, elderly and carers. But given the amount we spend on welfare as a whole, of course it can't escape the cuts.

Ahem, Mr Dickens says it best, I believe:

'At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, 'it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.'

'Are there no prisons?"

'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
'And the Union workhouses.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are they still in operation?'

'Both very busy, sir.'

'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'

'Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,' returned the gentleman, 'a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'

'Nothing!' Scrooge replied.

'You wish to be anonymous?'

'I wish to be left alone,' said Scrooge. 'Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'

'Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'

'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."