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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not use car seats?

143 replies

BlueFergie · 02/04/2012 13:41

Ok not as bad as it sounds.
We are going on hols in June. This will be third year in the same place. We stay on a campsite with amazing facilities and very close to a village with good bus and train links so we don't hire a car. The only issue is the trip from airport to camp site.
First year we got a coach laid on by travel company there and back. Last year coach there but thanks to a fuck up on the travel company's part had to get a taxi back. Kids were 4 and 2. Obviously no seats with us. Not ideal but what could we do, needed to make the plane. We strapped them in and off we went.
This year. Connecting coach charges have gone up and are charged per person so actually cheaper to get taxi there and back. We have a baby now who will be 9 months.
So what to do? I can't really bring three seats with me in the plane. A small booster for Dd who is 5 is fine but DS who is 3 is still well below recommended weight for a booster, and of course the baby is in the rear facing one which I don't want to put in the hold in case it gets damaged and won't be allowed as hand luggage I imagine?
We could pay extra for coach but is that any safer they won't be in car seats there either. Plus coach on way back just about gets us to airport an hour and half before flight. Airport is horribly disorganised and the first year we were stuck in horribly long queues for check in and security do it was awful and rushed and panicky. Last year we were fine because we got taxi and got there early but other people on coach had same experience as we had in prior year. I just don't fancy doing it again with three kids.
So AIBU to get a taxi with no car seats? Or what should I do?

OP posts:
VelmaDaphne · 02/04/2012 22:52

I would take portable seats for the older two children, and buy or borrow a proper seat for your baby.

I'm not entirely clear how a seat could be damaged enough to make it dangerous, but without it being visibly damaged. But I know what you mean - I had a nasty accident when DS1 was a baby, and I immediately replaced his car seat, although the old one looked absolutely fine.

Don't risk doing nothing though. I had an accident, lost control hit a tree and ended up in a ditch. I have no memory at all from when we went towards the tree, until we were stationary and the airbag was deflated. So there's no way I could have safely held on to a child in that time. And CDs that were in the glove compartment were 20 yards down the road. You wouldn't believe how much things move. The buggy in the boot was on the other side of a hedge! But DS1 was completely fine, not a mark on him. Those baby seats are amazing!

sayjay · 02/04/2012 23:07

Whoops, meant to say:
Take for baby, put in hold, then ditch on return if you like. Safer than nothing whilst away, I would have thought.
Or email the campsite, I did this in Spain, and they arranged a taxi transfer with appropriate seats for us and much less than we could find on the web.

Clytaemnestra · 02/04/2012 23:14

"We ended up buying off ebay a seat belt loop like the airlines give you for children on your lap (I think it's called an airline seat extension strap)... then youngest was strapped to the seatbelt on our lap - so he didn't get crushed by our bodyweight in case of an accident, but was restrained (and not leaping about in car). Other kids had seatbelts with the diagonal bit behind them, so in essence lap sash."

As far as I'm aware, airplane seatbelts are designed to stop you flying around the plane. They're not designed to help with fast impacts as if you're in a direct front on impact situation in an airplane then generally you have bigger problems than what kind of seatbelt you're wearing.

Lap belts are preferable to no belt as they mean you won't go through a window, but the entire force of impact isn't spread across your body, it's entirely on your stomach. Your upper body will fly forward further though so you might well still hit the dashboard/ front seat head on at whatever speed you're doing.

DENMAN03 · 02/04/2012 23:14

So you dont want to take a child seat in case it 'gets damaged in the hold', yet you are happy to risk killing your child by crushing in the event of an accident??!!!

christ

makeminemango · 02/04/2012 23:33

I cannot log out without posting. I have worked with people (mainly adults) with traumatic brain injury for the last 20 years. There is no question OP- please use appropriate car seats. Taking or booking a seat for your baby for even a short journey is so important. It's not worth the risk of brain injury, which is so devastating. Ok so maybe we grew up when seatbelts were not mandatory but since seatbelts have been legally enforced mortality rates and incidence of traumatic brain injury have dropped. You don't want to do it to your child or your family. I don't understand your concern about damaging a car seat when you could be damaging your child. Yes I too have been looked at like a mad woman for using a car seat in southern Italy but not to is just ignorance

ZacharyQuack · 02/04/2012 23:36

Have you contacted the airline or the airport to see if they provide bags for carseats?

Air NZ (locally in NZ) used to provide large plastic bags, now they have fabric bags. You drive to the airport with child in carseat, take carseat out of car, check in for your flight, go to "large/bulky items check in", get a bag for carseat, put carseat in bag and attach a luggage label. There's no extra charge for a carseat with a child's ticket.

At airport at other end, hand bag back.

Original poster
BlueFergie · 02/04/2012 23:37

Yes DENMAN03 I am happy to risk killing my child by crushing. I am delighted about the prospect. I think I explained very clearly what my concerns where with damaging the car seat in my last post. But I can't be bothered repeating it for someone who can't be fucking arsed reading the whole thread. FFS.
And kitty I am organising the trip around the logistics of having a baby and young children. That is what this thread is about. We are not actually going for another 2 and a half months so I have plenty of time to organise to travel safely thanks to some of the excellent ideas from this thread, which I created for that purpose. Thanks for your implied criticism though.

OP posts:
DENMAN03 · 02/04/2012 23:54

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Original poster
BlueFergie · 03/04/2012 00:01

Well why bother replying again then?
That was the purpose of this thread. To come up with suggestions and solutions that might work. I hadn't thought of that particular one so thread has served its role very well.
If not thinking of every possible solution myself and using mumsnet as a resource to help makes me a twat and an idiot then so be it. I thought it was what most people used mumsnet for. You know advice and other peoples experience.
Thank you for your kind wishes though. I will indeed enjoy my holiday!

OP posts:
DENMAN03 · 03/04/2012 00:24

It's not rocket science love.

Morloth · 03/04/2012 00:30

In your position (with an actual baby) I would go for the coach option. Buses/coaches react different in an accident to a smaller vehicle hence you don't need carseats.

It is a PITA certainly, but travelling with kids is.

I have used just a seat belt for a short taxi trip for a 2/3 year old before and indeed will be getting a cab in NY a couple of times with my 2 year old presumably without a carseat. There are risks and then there are risks.

It can be hard to stand your ground with this sort of stuff as well when the locals think you are mental. Grin

Kiwiinkits · 03/04/2012 04:02

BlueFergie you are getting a whole heap of shit from people that is entirely undeserved. I can't believe how mental some people can be. But then again I am very cynical about carseats for over 3's because I've read Freakonomics, which basically concludes that there is no evidence that carseats make ANY difference for over 3's (and that the manufacturers of these seats are laughing all the way to the bank after successfully lobbying Western governments to sell their product for them).

FFS it's ONE short journey. I wouldn't bother with a seat for the 3 and 5 year old, but would definitely take one or find one for the 9 month old. Campsite may be able to help you out.

Good luck. I'm glad you asked this question on MN, it will have helped a lot of people.

kittyandthefontanelles · 03/04/2012 04:09

The "implied criticism'' was because your OP suggested not using a car seat was an option. It is not (in my and many other people's opinion) and I'm incredulous that you would consider it. I too have worked with people with Acquired Brain Injury and 80% of them were due to car accidents. Had you explained the problem and said something like "obviously not using a car seat is not an option so can people suggest solutions please?" then there would have no "implied criticism" on my part. However, your thread title "implies" you would consider not using one. Please buy a seat, use it, save it for next years two half hour journeys. You must know that length of journey has no bearing on severity of accident. I'm not sure if you said where you are going but its true what pps have said about reduced driving and safety standards abroad resulting in greater numbers of accidents.

Jnice · 03/04/2012 04:11

When we travel (3 kids) we use the carseats in taxi to airport, wrap them in bin liners with tape, check them, then get them out at the other end, unwrap and use in taxi or rental car.

Airlines will carry them for free. We have never had one damaged.

It is a pita but the risks are just to big IMO.

I used to bounce around the back of a van wrapped in nothing but a sleeping bag as a child on many trips up and down the country. Just because I got away with it doesn't mean I would risk traveling without carseats for my kids.

amelia33 · 03/04/2012 04:12

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DPrince · 03/04/2012 05:59

I have just taken car seats for both mine on holiday. The airline company didn't charge to take them. Imo I wouldn't get in a car without them.

Clytaemnestra · 03/04/2012 07:05

I've read Freakonomics - I've also worked a lot with data and I know there are a lot of ways to manipulate it to get it to fit with a premise. Freakonomics is a fun book, and very interesting. It's not a bible.

There are two big problems with the articles you linked. Firstly they only talk about death, not serious injury. So, .3% more children die. Doesn't sound like much. But how many received serious internal injuries? How many banged their head off the seat in front and suffered brain damage? How much spinal damage from the pressure of the entire crash going through a lap belt and through the abdomen only. It's not even nearly a complete picture. I'm not saying the details change or that the injuries data will bear out what they're saying, I'm saying that it's an incomplete premise as presented. It's all based on FARS data, which is fatalities only.

More importantly, those links and studies are OLD, 7 years and 5 years respectively and based on US data, they acknowledge that there isn't . Car seats have changed a lot, in Europe at least they are tested for side impact as well as front. There are options such as crash pillows. I'm pretty sure the car seats they talk about as being thrown around weren't attached by ISOFIX for example.

It's every parents call and risk assessment to make (not that I don't judge privately, but am sure I do things that make other parents judge too) but basing an argument on 7 year old data from a different country from a book whose primary purpose is to entertain is probably not the most statistically sound way of doing things.

Clytaemnestra · 03/04/2012 07:06

(the .3% is from sets of data based on doing it properly - I'm not counting incorrectly installed/worn data)

EdithWeston · 03/04/2012 07:31

There isn't much you can do with an outgrown car seat, even if you absolutely know it's not been bashed.

OP: have you any friends who you think have completed their families and whose youngest is just on the point of outgrowing a seat? See if you can borrow/have it, and then either keep it as a holiday seat for thi summer, or use it on th holiday and then give it to the (bemused) taxi driver when you arrive at the airport on the way back.

BertieBotts · 03/04/2012 08:21

There are harness things you can buy on ebay like this which are supposedly designed to restrain children in a car. I'm not sure quite how they're allowed to sell them here as they clearly don't meet EU guidelines, but a similar idea to the airline type harness.

However because they have not been tested to EU guidelines there is no way of knowing how strong they are and whether they've been tested in an actual accident. In fact, there is no mention of safety testing at all on the item listing. Confused

Whatmeworry · 03/04/2012 08:26

Which country are you going to OP? Taxis in most OECD countries and many other developing ones will have gear for kids if you book in advance. Also most airlines can handle baby gear pretty easily, though its a faff for you but thems the breaks- we did a lot of driving to holiday destinations when ours were yours' age.

Fwiw we had a baby car seat which became the de facto thing for carrying them around everywhere.

BertieBotts · 03/04/2012 08:28

OP's baby is 9 months though, you can't carry a 9 month around in a car seat for long.

Not saying don't take it, but it's not going to have a double use as a carrying device unless she has a compatible pushchair.