In wanting to tell my friend her children are rude

[misspedantic]

I've just found this site and I'm loving the feedback I've had from other post. This problem is ongoing and I'm hoping for some advice...

About 2 months ago a friend called me to say she was upset that one of her friends has call her 6yr old ds and her 8yr old dd rude.

At first I was on her side, saying that her friend was rude for saying that. But over the past few weeks I have notice how rude they actually are and that she says nothing to them when they are being rude. The don't talk to adults, even if you ask them a question and she never pulls them up about this but instead answers for them.

examples:

1. we were out and her dd turned to her mother and asked when are they (meaning me and my dd) going home. I said that was a very nice thing to say but my friend said nothing to her dd.

2. we were on the train and her children didn't want to sit next to my dd which made her cry. When I finally had enough I told them to stop making a fuss and sit down, my friend said nothing. When they had sat down her dd kept on moving away from my dd saying "her coat is touching me".

3. the other day her dd whispered something into her mother ear. I heard my name and asked what she had said. My friend said "oh nothing". I then turned to her dd and told her that it was rude to whisper about people. Again my friend said nothing.

The problem is, my friend has mentioned that she doesn't think her children are rude. Other people have mentioned it to me, even without me saying anything to them. The next time she brings it up WIBU in saying "well yeah they are".

If you talk to her about her children are you prepared to hear anything back about your own? Supposing she says something along the lines of, "Yeah, I know it's not ideal but my kids really struggle with your daughter. All that crying when she doesn't get what she wants and them always being made out to be the bad guys. They don't enjoy being around such a brat and I'm afraid they show it."

I am also wondering how you know that your child is one of only a handful of children not to be complained about at school. As you also talk to other people about these children I think you are weirdly over-involved.

I find it strange OP that you were so offended by the Westminster Abbey incident. I would completely expect that a child on such a trip would quickly become tired and bored and ask when she was going to go home. Why did you take it as such a personal insult?

She was asking when are they (OP and kids) going to go, I thought Bugster?

I've had a friend's daughter ask that about me and DD in their house- we'd only been there ten minutes and according to her mother, she'd been mithering for us to arrive since daybreak.

I could be wrong but I think the child wanted to know when the OP and her daughter were going home bugster, not asking when she herself would be leaving WA. More "when are they going home?" than "when am I going home?"

I was a shy child and I worry that DS will be shy because it is hard. But I think most people can tell the difference between a shy one and a rude one because of the body language even if no words are spoken.

A shy child (or even a shy adult) finds it hard to look people in the eye, a rude one can stare at you like you've grown a third eyeball.

x posted with Sue

I'm a bit on the fence. It sounds as if they have done and said things which could be construed as very rude. But you sound very quick to jump in there. I'm not averse to telling a child off in front of their parent for bad behaviour that was harmful or hurtful, but not bad manners.

That was my first thought when I read the OP, and complexnumber has said what I was thinking too

I have several friends who never seem to step in when their kids are rude. To the point that last week when I had a bunch of them over and the kids repeatedly helped themselves to food without saying please, thank you or may I have...and the mums sat there saying nothing, I started saying: What's the magic word? rather pointedly. It's not my job to teach their kids manners. It infuriates me when people don't.

Same as when the kids are out of sight but one comes back saying that another one hit them or something. If my child is involved, I always get involved and find out what the situation is and if my child was in the wrong, do something about it by making them apologise or taking away a privilege or whatever. They sit back and say things like: Oh, I'm sure he didn't mean it.

That said - if one of mine made fusses about coats touching etc I'd tell them to grow up

Oh right, yes it seems I got it wrong, she was asking when OP and DD were going to go home.

Maybe the kids are being rude and their mother shouldn't ignore it. Sometimes making a huge big deal about it makes things worse though. I have experienced things loke the coat touching incident, children not wanting to be followed around etc lots of times. My DDs are 7 and 4. They seem mad to us but there is usually some explanation for why the children feel that way, and I think the best thing is to get them to try and empathise with the feelings of others, and to encourage them to talk about their own feelings.

Greeting and saying please and thank you, eye contact etc are all important areas to work on, but there are a lot of children who do struggle with it if they don't really know the adult, but it sounds like they must know OP very well in this case, so maybe it's not just shyness!

My eldest DD was very shy, and still not the best at answering questions, but she is in a school where all the children's social competence is analysed in great detail. I am really happy that in her last report she had the top marks in nearly all areas - things like being considerate of others' needs, ability to assert oneself, helping other children. So while I always remind her of the importance of answering, making eye contact etc, I don't get too worried if she doesn't always do it, because of the favourable comments from her teacher.

It sounds like these children may well be different though! But OP I would't get too upset about it. They are probably like it woth everyone.

OP, are you actually waiting long enough for your friend to correct her own children? I would be annoyed with another adult jumping in to tell my DS off as quickly as you seem to and I wouldn't do it to other children either. It sounds as if you are doing the mother's job for her and maybe she is incredibly easygoing and doesn't get annoyed with you about it? My mum was like this and let my aunt discipline us far more than she should have done, IMO.

The children do sound a bit rude to me, but perhaps you and your friend parent completely differently and I think you need to ask yourself if your friendship can overcome such different styles? If you and your DD really can't stand these children (and it sounds like it), perhaps it's time to let the friendship drift?

complexnumber are you reading stuff I haven't posted... I haven't talked to other people about these children. They don't even go to the same school as my dd. Some of our friends have mentioned it to me but I've not said anything about how I feel to them.

The teacher told me at parent evening that my dd has never had anyone complaint about her and my dd isn't anything like a brat, but it's hard to not cry when you have two children saying they don't want to be anywhere near you.

PS I don't think they are shy because the do look you straight in the eyes. Just stare at you. It's really off putting and sometimes I forget that they don't speak to adults... and sometimes to children and ask them something. Oh and to add to my last post, sometimes they get annoyed when my daughter just talks to them. Mostly the dd would whine and say "stop talking to me", this makes my dd cry too.

The more I'm writing the more I think I should let my dd near them again.

I think it sounds as though they are maybe frightened of you and your DD.They obviously don't like the pair of you, and children are honest about stuff like this.
I actually think you are rather rude ,I wouldn't dream of demanding of a parent what their child was whispering to them about and certainly would not tell them off in front of their mother for something like this!!

I agree with you OP they do sound rude. We fell out in a HUGE way with friends of ours over their kids behaviour. The final straw was their DD ruining our DDs birthday party with her tantrums, rudeness and demands but it had been difficult for years. I eventually, after posting about it on MN, tried to talk to them about it and they literally cut us dead and have refused to speak to us again! I was really sad to lose their friendship but I don't miss putting up with their kids behaviour.

None of DDs other friends behave like that, and having them over or taking them out is great fun. I really don't think there is any excuse for not picking kids up on rude behaviour like that. By the way my DD was extremely shy when she was younger and my BFs DS is painfully shy but she has taught him that he still needs to be polite.

I suppose my experience has shown that if you do confront the other mum about this be prepared to lose a friend.

Hmmm, I think the kids sound like they don't like sharing their mum with anyone...

Do you know how they act when they are by themselves with your friend? Do they run her ragged?

You could maybe ask your friend if she minds you pulling her kids up as a bit of a lead in statement to say how their behaviour makes you feel.

I would ask your friend why her dc won't answer your questions and see what she says.

If she says "well they can't be arsed and I don't see why they should" or words to that effect you could suggest that other people might interpret it as rudeness.

Lequeen I agree with that. I wouldn't be picking other people's children up on this type of rudeness in front of their parents either. That was one of the issues when we fell out with our friends. They maintained that if their DDs behaviour had troubled us that much we ought to have corrected it ourselves even though they were in the same room!

Misspedantic, I can't see any benefit to you or your DD in socialising with your friend's DC. I would be seriously tempted not to invite them to your home or on any trips anymore. If your friend wants to see you, organise it without DC.

I think if you speak out about the rudeness, you risk losing her friendship altogether. However if she questions why you only want to see her and not the DC you can truthfully answer that they clearly don't enjoy each others company, which is reasonable because they don't have to just because their mums are friends. As a kid, my mum had a friend whose DD's I didn't really get on with, we wouldn't have chosen to play together of our own accord. Over the years our parents still met, but we DC basically had nothing in common and so were just polite but bored. I hated it.

I also think that if enough people avoid inviting her DC to things, she may begin to think that perhaps they are right about her DC lack of manners. It will be a huge relief to your DD not to have to put up with them, and I think you should try to cultivate other friendships for yourself and her, where you will both enjoy them.

I once had a woman I had met at a baby group come over for a playdate. Firstly she started to move ornaments around because she didn't want her ds to hurt himself (whilst I'm of the opinion that you should teach your children not to touch) and then her ds picked up a toy camera and ripped the play film out of it... right in front of her. I kinda did a little yelp, as if to jump in and stop him but she just sat there, watching him and said what. He also poured blue glue all over my cream carpet, broke my dd toy garage lift, flooded the bathroom and cut the hair off of one of her dolls (with a pair of toy scissors). That day was the last time I ever saw her, I just thought I cannot be bothered.

I think with my friend I'm going to take some of the advice that said I should make arrangements to meet at times when we don't have our children around for a while. I think that they are probably getting to that age where they have different friends and don't have that much in common anymore. It's a shame because they have know each other since babies. I'm not going to say anything to my friend, hopefully someone else will raise the conversation with her and I can just say "well, I kinda see where they're coming from".

it is called being shy not rude

Children have fewer inhibitions about speaking their mind than adults. But social niceties are necessary in life and it is a parents duty to teach them. Her failure to do so is a failure as a parent IMHO.

That is not the same thing as a shy child not feeling they can speak to an adult, and a well-known familiar adult is not the same thing as a stranger demanding interaction, and shyness shouldn't get a telling off, of course.

But one child making another upset by being affronted at her coat even touching her (and other similar examples you give) is unacceptable. Your poor dd!

I personally would be avoiding spending time with her (doesn't seem to me that anyone is getting much out of the occasion) but would be unlikely to tell her why unless she asked, as she isn't going to accept your view, so it will improve nothing and may cause problems. I don't see the point in addressing it unless it was possible it would have a positive outcome.

The usual rule is not to critique another parents parenting unless asked.

Pity these issues spoil an otherwise acceptable friendship but hey - that's life. :)

I think not speaking to adults can be shyness not rudeness to be honest.

I consider all the other points to be low level rudeness though but i think you don't need to tell her unless she asks again. You can just make sure that you pull her kids up on any things they do that may effect your child though. Be firm but fair. Point out what they are doing to the mum maybe? Some people just don't see it and think the sun shines out of thier kids arses.

Alternitivly say that you child hasn't really enjoyed being with her kids recently and ask to meet up in the evenings. I've had to do that myself and the kids get on really well after a long break.