To be starting to regret sending DD to a CofE school?

[clarabellabunting]

My DD goes to a CofE school which is basically just an old village school but affiliated to the local church as a lot of schools like that are. Despite being non-religious, DH and I sent her there quite happily thinking there would be no problem with her learning religious stories as they tend to be fairly harmless and generally have good morals to them. In the same way that small children are told about Father Christmas, etc.

However, today on the way to school DD asked me about how the world was made. I began to explain to her about the Big Bang from my somewhat rusty memory of the subject. But DD got quite upset and annoyed at me, shouting "Why are you telling me things that aren't true?!" and insisting that God made the universe. She mentioned the Dinosaurs and I tried to bring up the theory of evolution but received a similar response. She then started to insist "I am God's helper" and told me to stop telling her things that aren't true. I tried to tell her that being God's helper was fine, and suggest that God could have started the Big Bang and the process of Evolution but she wasn't having any of it.

DD is in Year 1, so will be turning six soon, by the way.

So... while I knew that there would be some religious aspect to her education, AIBU to think that her school are not handling this very well if the result is a confused and upset child at the mere mention of the Big Bang and Evolution? Perhaps Year 1 is too young to begin to tackle complicated scientific subjects but the sense of certainty I got from DD that 'God made us' and 'God made the world' was something I found a bit worrying.

I was under the impression that the CofE was OK with the concepts of the Big Bang and Evolution in general so I can't see why that can't be part of any teaching they do about the origins of life and the universe (if that is what they're teaching - Yr 1, does seem a bit young for discussion about this topic).

DD was never christened, we have never attended any church, and on all the forms etc. when she started school I put that we were of 'no religion'. However, she has come home saying that she is a Christian and that they teacher has told them that they are all Christians...

I know I'll get replies saying that I shouldn't have sent her to a CofE school if I didn't want this, etc. but is that really what the CofE is? I'm pretty sure it isn't all about creationism and denial of evolution etc.

And is it fair to handle the teaching this way when the catchment is the whole village and there really is no other choice of school? If there were a Jewish family in the village and they put on the forms etc. when starting school that they were Jewish, would their child come home saying they had been told by the teacher that they were Christian?

Can I just add that six yr olds can understand evolution and the Big Bang just as well as creationism. My DS mistook a picture of Christ for a picture of Charles Darwin....

My DD definitely learns about other religions. She was quite taken with the Hindu religion and told me some Hindu stories she had learnt. I told her she could be a Hindu if she wanted but apparently no, she is a Christian because the teacher said so.
(disclaimer, the teacher might not have said this )

mummytime, that's what I assumed the case would be.

Clara - I would go and speak to the head. These threads tend to get a response of 'you are being a drama queen, what do you expect it's a CoE school etc...'

But CoE schools (particularly village schools) do not exist just to serve churchgoers and there is no reason why you should accept a put-up-and-shut-up approach to RE teaching and worship at the school.

It is not unreasonable to go in and have an adult conversation with the Head and find out their policies on creationism vs evolution and on respecting the diversity of religious beliefs and non-religious beliefs amongst families at the school - I.e. Is this an evangelical teacher freelancing her beliefs or do they think it's ok, and is this how it will continue.

I agree they wouldn't tell a kid called Abdul or one who wears a skull cap that they are Christians and it is wrong to tell kids without an obvious 'other' religion that they are Christians as a default.

I can't see how creationism could possibly be taught in any form of state-funded educational establishment, beyond being introduced as a story from the bible. I really wish that there was proper segregation between church and state in the UK to prevent this sort of thing, but I get the feeling I am in a minority in thinking this way.

I spent a year at a small rural secondary school not taking part in assembly, RE and Monday prayers at a state school in the 70s, as I was not Christian. It was great fun, there were another two Jewish kids and some Jehovah witnesses and we just sat about and chatted and played cards, pretty much unsupervised.
But we were considered to be slight freaks.

Our village school is a C of E primary and tbh, the level of doctrinal teaching has depended very much on who the HT is. They do, however, have regular visits from the Vicar (who is the diocesan representative on the Board of Governors) and at certain times of the year will be taken up to the church to perform things. I don't get the impression that they ram Christianity down the necks of the children but as a C of E school they do involve the church. Parents can, of course, opt out of events that are church-based. It also helps that there's a "celeb vicar" who makes things amusing rather than dogmatic unlike the previous rather stern incumbent who'd swish around the village in the sort of canonicals you'd expect to see at the Vatican. Teachers at the school are expected to be confirmed and practicing members of the C of E though.

Currently, things at school are fairly "C of E light" but when my stepchildren attended, the HT was a Bible Basher of the old school. This didn't stop my dsc coming out as confirmed non-believers but DP tells me that there was a phase when dss1 (in particular) would come home and take a deal of pleasure out of assuring everyone in the family that they were wrong on various fundamental issues because "Miss" said differently.

So if your dd is already opinionated and has now reached the age where, if you'll excuse the pun, everything her teacher said is gospel, the school may not be trying to indoctrinate her into the creationist myth but merely following the sort of broadly C & E teachings that are inevitable if you choose a denominational over a secular school. It could be something well worth raising at a future parent's evening though so you have some facts to work with rather than the potentially unreliable reporting from a rather dramatic 6 year old.

Himalaya, thanks I think I may do just that.

I don't want to cause a fuss or anything but it would be nice for me to know exactly what is being taught so that I can provide balance at home.

I am an atheist but tend to not be very 'in your face' about it in real life and I am desperate to avoid accidentally insulting religious people to their faces so I am loath to bring subjects like this up in general. But I think I'll have to bite the bullet and do it.

It never fails to amaze me that parents send their children to religious schools then are that they are schooled in that religion.

Pandemoniaa is that legal then, to only employ people of a certain religion in a presumably state-funded school?

Yes I think it does depend on the individual school. As my mums school is half run by the church ie church governors, assigned priest appoints etc she has to take into account the views of the governors etc who wrote the school ethos. Religious schools have quite a lot of freedom in that sense to decide what they do and do not want. My mum was actually appointed to bring more balance as the priest assigned at the moment felt they had gone too far.
Maybe you should just speak to the school and find out exactly what is being taught said? It could be that your dd is latching onto just one or two comments.

Proudnscary did you read my OP? - I said I expected it but I'm slightly surprised/dismayed at the way it is done (ie creationism etc. taught as fact when it isn't even necessarily a CofE belief).

Maybe I was naive... or maybe DD is leading me up the garden path and nothing of the sort is going on.

And yes it is legal to appoint Christian for a Christian school, being a church goer was listed as a requirement on my mums job spec. Though this does depend where the funding is from ie her school is mostly church funded about 60/40 I think.

Clara, there's no evidence that your child was taught creationism as a fact, your daughter heard some stuff about God making the world, then heard your version about dinosaurs and decided you were wrong!

I would be absolutely astonished if they were teaching creationism as fact, however, they will be teaching things like 'Jesus is the son of God' and children will take that as a fact at this age. Children are often very pro-God, pro-whatever teachers say and have a rather simplistic view on things (e.g. aged 8 they will all agree smoking is bad and kills you, aged 15, most of them will have smoked).

My six year old used to tell me that they went to MacDonalds in school-time. Luckily I took it with a pinch of salt and didn't go up to the school and make a fool of myself by asking if they really did this

Also possible that your DD not leading you up the garden path but the school taught it as 'belief' rather than 'fact' but DD is too young to understand the difference.

x-post!

It depends on whether a denominational school is controlled or aided, clara, but there is provision within the Schools Standards & Framework Act:

"The law allows preference to be given, in connection with the appointment, promotion or remuneration of teachers at voluntary aided schools and independent schools, to those whose opinions accord with the school's religious doctrine, who attend worship in accordance with that doctrine, or are willing to teach religious education in accordance with that doctrine.

In the case of foundation or voluntary controlled schools the position is the same but the number of teachers so appointed ('reserved teachers') must be limited to one-fifth of the teaching staff."

In the case of our village school, all the HTs have had "opinions that accord with the school's religious doctrine".

Yes I read your OP.

I wouldn't send my kids to a religious school, not even our new, local (very good) academy because it has religious affiliations/sponsors and we are athiests. We got the impression when we visited this academy that they were playing down the religious aspect and anecdotally we were right. I didn't know what they would be preaching teaching the dc so it wasn't an option for us.

I'm not sure it is still legal just to employ Christians in a Christian school. There was a lot of debate about this a couple of years ago, as yes its okay to say a Vicar etc. have to be Christian, but I'm not sure you can insist that the Church cleaner is. The Catholics kind of side step it by wanting you to have the certificate of Catholic education.
DCs school does ask in interview if you will be happy with the Christian emphasis of the school, but I know there are non-Christians on the staff (and at least one Muslim).

I often see teaching jobs advertised that ask the applicant to be 'sympathetic' to the values of the school rather than ask that they be of that particular belief. Fair enough imo.

I'm pretty sure it isn't all about creationism and denial of evolution etc

I'm CofE and I think most of us accept that creationism is simply an analogy for evolution (or at least that is my opinion on the early chapters of genesis). After all, the Bible was written by people that could not possibly have thought of scientific theories like the Big Bang so IMHO a lot of the Bible has to be taken as peoples' interpretation of how/why things happened.

Your DD is so young still, it might just be that these concepts are just too difficult for her and she has held on to something that is simple enough for her to grasp.

My six year old has no trouble with the big bang or evolution, he tells people that he comes from monkeys! He likes to share during RE lessons too, which doesn't go down to well but I secretly approve of

OP, I struggle with this - we chose CofE because it was that or Catholic, and we though CofE would be less full on.

They are trying to brainwash DS and am constantly fighting a losing battle trying to balance this out by telling him about other religions/getting him celebrate pagan festivals. [grins]

It really pisses me off and I think that all schools should be completely secular.

Proudnscary Some of us parents don't have a choice about not sending our children to religious schools.
The nearest none religious school to where we live is over 10 miles away.
Within that 10 miles there are at least 10 schools of a religious nature ranging from CofE to Catholic.
My children go to a non selective CofE school but the religion element is still there with daily prayers and services at the local church.

Disco - I was told that there is no such thing as a non-religious school, I think they all have to have some sort of collective worship. Sounds like you're in the same boat as us, it was literally Hobson's choice.

Hobson's choice for alot of us I think. Our school head is very reasonable and easy to deal with, which helps, and there are a few children of other faiths (our location=no choice really) at the school. I have really no complaints about the school, but it does gall me a bit that I'm paying tax like everyone else, and yet I don't have a choice as to whether my child is taught with a particular ethos or not.

Is it really 60/40 as to church/state funding? I'm very surprised if it is.

We had something similar from DD in Year 1, she was at a non religious state first school. I nearly crashed the car when she came out with the Creation stuff then tried to explain Evolution on the hoof whilst driving. It failed miserably and she thought I was saying the monkeys made the world.

She is now at a C of E Middle School, goodness knows what they are coming out with there. Something about we shall all meet again on top of a hill which just has caused much hilarity amongst her year, a lot of whom let the whole religion thing wash over them - mostly I guess due to parental view at home. She did say the other day about one of the people who came into do assembly going out on about they were going to hell if they don't believe in God but she's pretty scathing about all that which is fine by me. Thing is we haven't really got any choice about the Church aspect as it is our catchment school. If we put one of the other two Middle Schools which aren't C of E and very over subscribed then we risk not getting a place and having to go outside of our area pyramid.

So I've come to the conclusion let the school get on with it and discuss our beliefs or lack of at home.