To be starting to regret sending DD to a CofE school?

[clarabellabunting]

My DD goes to a CofE school which is basically just an old village school but affiliated to the local church as a lot of schools like that are. Despite being non-religious, DH and I sent her there quite happily thinking there would be no problem with her learning religious stories as they tend to be fairly harmless and generally have good morals to them. In the same way that small children are told about Father Christmas, etc.

However, today on the way to school DD asked me about how the world was made. I began to explain to her about the Big Bang from my somewhat rusty memory of the subject. But DD got quite upset and annoyed at me, shouting "Why are you telling me things that aren't true?!" and insisting that God made the universe. She mentioned the Dinosaurs and I tried to bring up the theory of evolution but received a similar response. She then started to insist "I am God's helper" and told me to stop telling her things that aren't true. I tried to tell her that being God's helper was fine, and suggest that God could have started the Big Bang and the process of Evolution but she wasn't having any of it.

DD is in Year 1, so will be turning six soon, by the way.

So... while I knew that there would be some religious aspect to her education, AIBU to think that her school are not handling this very well if the result is a confused and upset child at the mere mention of the Big Bang and Evolution? Perhaps Year 1 is too young to begin to tackle complicated scientific subjects but the sense of certainty I got from DD that 'God made us' and 'God made the world' was something I found a bit worrying.

I was under the impression that the CofE was OK with the concepts of the Big Bang and Evolution in general so I can't see why that can't be part of any teaching they do about the origins of life and the universe (if that is what they're teaching - Yr 1, does seem a bit young for discussion about this topic).

DD was never christened, we have never attended any church, and on all the forms etc. when she started school I put that we were of 'no religion'. However, she has come home saying that she is a Christian and that they teacher has told them that they are all Christians...

I know I'll get replies saying that I shouldn't have sent her to a CofE school if I didn't want this, etc. but is that really what the CofE is? I'm pretty sure it isn't all about creationism and denial of evolution etc.

And is it fair to handle the teaching this way when the catchment is the whole village and there really is no other choice of school? If there were a Jewish family in the village and they put on the forms etc. when starting school that they were Jewish, would their child come home saying they had been told by the teacher that they were Christian?

This all seems really rather plausible to me It'd bug me too, OP.

Clara- they will get to that. But be patient, she's six, the world is made up of wonderful stories and she's just not sure which are true for her. If you go into the school, you will find they told the children something quite different.

Hi I think this is a difficult one. If you are unhappy I would talk to the teacher at least your dd is thinking about things. I come at this from 2 pov I home ed my son who at 4 and he has a understanding of the universe, evolution, and a dinosaur obsession! So i dint think she js too young to understand what you tell her. My mum is the head of a c of e school where she cannot teach evolution as it goes against the creationist ethos of the school however she never says what the children are, she says that as a school they are Christian and each child will decide for themselves once older what to believe. I think this is very important. Walking with monsters the tv programme /DVD has a very good first episode showing what might have happened at the big bang.

I mean, a story in which there were funny lizard creatures roaming the earth, which disappeared, then we developed out of monkeys doesn't sound any less fantastical than a father-figure God who created the universe, does it?

If all the energy that went into these threads went into lobbying for the separation of church and state, something might be achieved.

helpyourself I agree.

So it depends on the "ethos" of the school then, Mama1980?

That's scary. I know our school is supposed to have a Christian ethos because that's what the Head said when he showed us around. But there was no mention of Creationism etc. It's a bit worrying that someone could inadvertently send their child to a school that teaches creationism...

I think most people will assume that a CofE school will go along with whatever the CofE consensis is, which is usually quite reasonable and acceptable to the non-religious.

I might try showing her that Walking with Monsters episode.... she is quite keen on dinosaurs.

I would feel bothered if my child were learning that woman was created as a companion for man and that her actions were the primary cause of humans losing paradise. I remember these stories clearly from my childhood and feeling very angry as a teenager that we had been taught these things as fact as I began to make my own mind up. (yes, you choose to send you child to a faith school but the child doesn't choose) The facts can be resolved later but I feel like this cultural impression could remain with a child and shape her views about human relationships, the position of women etc. It's difficult because a child that age is going to feel very confused if her parents and her teachers are telling her two different things.

I think that's the problem, Conchita. I would never contradict DD if she says something about praying or believing in God. That's up to her.

But if she says something that is contrary to the facts, I feel like I should say something to balance it out. And I worry that this will confuse her as she sees her teachers as the authority on truth at the moment.

And as she's an argumentative little so-and-so, I foresee that this will lead to many more arguments in the car on the way to school.

I just don't see why Yr 1 is too young to teach them about the science but it's OK to give them the alternative religious view of the origins of life and the universe.

And considering that the CofE accepts evolution etc. I don't get why they are teaching the creationism at all.

But I do fully accept that it may be that DD has taken everything she has learned a little bit too literally and they might not be 'teaching creationism' at all.

I feel your pain. My DD is in a C of E school (v high church actually - came home with ash on her forehead on Ash Wednesday and everything) and she is very insistant that god made everything and "Jesus is true". We walked past a halal butcher the other day and she asked what halal meant. When I started explaining about other religions she said "They're just wrong - I know". I don't like it but I dont want to contradict her too directly because I don't want to set up a conflict between what I believe and what the school tells her. We had a brief conversation about people having different beliefs and that being important but didn't go any further.

I am going with the flow on thsi one, to be honest. I put it down to her being 5 and at that age they only can see things in black and white and they need the nice story to make sense of things. I am absolutely not a believer but I think it's expecting too much of a 5 year old to discuss any of this with much subtlety.

My stepmum reassures me that she was indoctrinated taught in the same way when she was at convent school and she took it all at face value at the time but later developed her own ideas and looks back on it as just one of the funny things they used to do at school.

at my CofE secondary school they taught evolution in Science and creation in RE and we had two different RE teachers, one of whom said it was the Truth and another who said that the Old Testament was mostly allegorical or a way our ancestors understood things before scientific theories were developed. It was confusing as hell even for a teenager and the main outcome was that I lost my faith in the teachers.

Kids come home from school and tell you no you need to start each sentence of speech on a new line, "Miss said so". Even if you are an expert in grammar, you don't know as much as Miss, even if Miss never said such a thing but your LO just misunderstood.
Its a stage, if you are really good though by secondary they will argue in RE lessons when the teachers says "Christian's believe" or "Christian's do this" .
C of E n the whole believe in evolution and big bang, although are amazingly tolerant of people who don't. My DCs C of E primary teach them about Native American creation myths in year 5, so it might be interesting to see what she would come home with after that.

If you are very worried talk to the school and maybe the vicar.

Your DD may have a particularly tub-thumping Christian teacher who's got to her. But given her age she'll probably have changed her mind next week (although Easter may be a challenge).

Agreed, helpyourself. Speaking as someone who has to drive their DDs to a non-faith school as the nearest primary (200 yards) is a faith school, to which people drive from miles around, because we didn't want to "play the game".

I think your comment that you "inadvertently" sent your child to a school that teaches creationism is very telling... It's a faith school.

Floggingmolly but... faith school =/= creationism, does it?

And I was just talking in general that it's scary that could happen as it seems some CofE schools have a creationist ethos and some don't.

Conchita are you seriously suggesting that we not even mention Adam and Eve, or Noah, of the birth of Jesus, or any of these well-known cultural myths at all in case children get confused? I like my children to have knowledge of these stories, I don't even mind if they, aged 6 'believe them', I don't want them to grow up so culturally impoverished, they can't read Shakespeare or understand what someone being a 'judas' is, or understand the persecution of Jewish people in context. Children don't need simplistic teaching about science, either, especially as parts of evolutionary theory are a bit holey, as is the 'what killed the dinosaurs' theory (which enrages my husband no end as he hates the fact that the children are taught quite simplistic probably wrong things about evolution too!)

Clara, now you are over-egging the pudding a bit, I don't think many CofE schools subscribe to a creationist ethos at all. Go and ask your school, I'm betting my bottom dollar they don't in the slightest, they probably did the story of Adam and Eve, you contradicted your six year old daughter, and she told you the teacher knows best!

I have been in exactly the same situation as you, op. And my DD is a very verbal child also, so i have had these conversations almost word for word. I do the, well people believe different things etc. At the mo, what the teacher says is gospel (sorry the pun), and rightly or wrongly, I've just said that's not what we believe.... It is very difficult, and at least they don't expound the creationism thing in our school. My saving grace is that there is a Muslim child in the class, and I use her as an example of the different beliefs in the world. For the moment DD tells me she is a believer (she's 6), and we kind of leave it and hope because she is a thinker and questioner and in time will reach her own conclusion. I have to say if the school started teaching creationism, I think I'd have to do someting.

Mumsyblouse I wasn't saying they do! I was just responding to Mama1980 who said her Mum is the head of a CofE school which does not teach evolution due to its Creationist ethos. I wasn't aware that such schools (ie with a creationist ethos) existed, at least not state schools.

no, I am not suggesting that at all, I'm saying that it would bother me if the creation story were taught to my child as fact/history. I accept it as part of our cultural heritage, of course. I further commented that the difficulty at that age is that children might struggle if the teacher is presenting it as fact and parent is challenging it

My village primary wasn't CofE but did have close links with the village church, and this all sounds very familiar to me...but in my case was nearly 30 years ago!

Don't really know how it all worked back in those days but I would imagine teachers at primary schools had a much freer rein to teach what they liked...and certainly nobody at our school was talking about evolution or the Big Bang!

The only science lessons I can remember doing (in top juniors, not year 1 or 2) were to do with learning about the digestive system, and weights and pressure (that thing where you built a bridge out of dried spaghetti and had to balance a bag of flour on it).

I was dimly aware that when I got to secondary school we would be learning 'real' science but apart from that it just didn't impact on my primary school consciousness at all.

Similarly I remember being bored in RE lessons which mainly consisted of drawing maps of 'The Holy Land' and was pleasantly surprised when I got to secondary school and found we'd be learning about other religions too.

However I imagine things are a bit different now - presumably primary schools have proper curriculums and in your place I'd certainly be inquiring politely what exactly the children have been learning in RE (as opposed to what they've overheard in the playground - I can remember being mortified when a girl said to me 'Who's your father?', I told her my dad's name, and she replied 'No he isn't, God's your father!' - honestly thought I was being told my dad wasn't my real dad!!) - and what, if anything, they are going to be taught about evolution and science later on.

If the school tell you they do not plan to teach evolution at all because they are a CofE school, I wouldn't be happy about that at all. If they aren't going to teach it because it doesn't form part of the primary curriculum, well, then I'd do as others have suggested and remind your DD that many people have different opinions about these things and it's OK to believe what she wants now, and she might learn more & think differently about it as she gets older.

PS - and to answer your hypothetical question, there was a Jewish (or at least Israeli born, if not actively religious) girl at my village primary school and yes, she was made to do Christian prayers and hymns along with everyone else.

Potentially her mum could have asked for her to be excluded from RE lessons, etc, but perhaps she didn't want to do anything to make her daughter feel more different from everyone else. Small rural villages in the 80's like mine were very white, reactionary and conservative and anyone a bit different - single parent, disabled child, non-white person - were regarded with deep suspicion. Hopefully things are a bit better than that now across most of the country.

A state school teaching strict creationism is going against the NC and will be marked down (possibly failed) by Ofsted. If concerned I would ask the head for clarification.

I did hear once of a Catholic secondary which refused to teach anything on sex education, but it was put into special measures.