AIBU to think that cyclists and drivers

[helloclitty]

might be a lot more civil to each other if it was mandatory to pass tests in both cycling and driving if using the road, whether you are a cyclist or vehicle driver.

Of course there would have to be exclusions for people unable to cycle or drive for any reason (a simulator perhaps). However, with the focus on green living and the sheer increase in road traffic on our narrow city roads something has to be done. We cannot divide up the roads there is simply not enough space, we need to be able to share them and understand all road users needs as well as our own.

outraged

It really doesn't have relevance to my OP. The cost of running a car has nothing to do with the fact that many (not all) drivers have literally no idea about the needs of a cyclist. As many cyclist (not all) have a real lack of knowledge of road safety from a drivers perspective.

bennifer

iloveminieggs I don't get how cyclists want to be treated fair and with respect when they then choose which red lights they do and don't go through, most seem to make up their own rules of the road most of the time.

Firstly not all cyclists go through red lights and this is not a debate about cyclists wanting respect.

Secondly, most cyclists don't make their own rules up. That is your perception, a perception which I think you would change you mind about if you spent a week or 2 commuting in London.

You are probably someone who would benefit from this kind of idea.

No, you're right about cycling being mandatory for drivers BUT on the other point YABU and I'll tell you why. These forms of transport are not compatible.

It would be far safer and better if there were a lot more cycle routes and lanes and they were essentially segregated as much as possible.

Cars move at up to 70, well way more than that if you're counting the speeders, and bicycles usually go at around 5mph. Think about it. They hate each other because they're forced to share the road. If they had their own space they would get on fine.

Btw I drive, ride motorcycles and bicycles. I grew up in a family of militant cyclists without a car. I cycled 6 miles a day from the age of 11 to 17 so I know what I'm talking about.

I'm very pro cycling but not on the roads I have to drive on. It Just Doesn't Work. Of course I treat other road users with due respect and great care but the situation is pretty dire at the moment for the cyclist.

Jane

I agree in an ideal world lanes should be segregated but that is not an option, certainly in London. So would the next best thing be to get both groups to live in each others seats for a while?

Just to add to my earlier post, some of my most terrifying near misses on a bike have been when a pedestrian has walked into the road in front of me without looking when it's my right of way. Should we make pedestrians take a test too?

fishyfairy
You are so right, pedestrians have caused me to go over the handle bars and swerve into the road. Hopefully some of those pedestrians maybe be drivers?

I'm not entirely sure that's an option either, HC!

I've often thought the same though.

Just come to the conclusion that while you've got people in huge metal boxes going at 30 and people on tiny metal bicycles going at 5, you're always going to end up with horrible accidents and a lot of frustration and resentment besides.

It just makes sense. But how it could be done is a different matter.

Here in a small provincial city we have cycle routes in different places to the roads. Some are alongside, but a lot are straight through the city instead of round the outside, things like that - so space isn't the huge issue it could be.

You don't need to put the bicycles next to the cars is what I'm saying. They'll have to cross over now and again but essentially a cycle route is no bigger than a pavement so it should be possible to have a lot more than there are currently, even somewhere like London.

Jane

Nice to have a sensible conversation

The thing is in London there is often very little pavement anyway with pedestrian having to jump into the road to pass slower ones etc.
Also there can often be loads of cyclists on the road, for example at a traffic light junction you can often end up with 20 or more cyclists in the box. You get the idea. There is no way one narrow cycle lane would accommodate the sheer volume of cyclist.
There are also side roads every few yards so it would be a matter of pedalling for a few seconds and stopping. You couldn't put in a lane a such.

I think cyclists than choose to cycle on 60 and 70mph limit roads are insane. There is virtually no chance of surviving being hit at that speed. In a 30 zone cars should give up priority to cyclists.

I take your point but I'm thinking more that the side roads become the lanes. I mean the little side roads. Put the lanes across the roads, intersecting perhaps but not competing for width.

I dunno, I'm no good at planning...you need to look at the Netherlands really and their volume and how that integrates with other traffic in the major cities.

It's all really interesting. See you could say that a great deal of central London is flattish, so cars aren't that important there but of course as soon as you get outside the middle and you find a hill, well someone's going to come in on that hill so they''ll need a car anyway. You're not gonna drive up the hill then abandon the car and get your bike out for the flat bit.

So it is different but it's got to change, something needs to and yes it is good to have a proper chat about it

Jane

Unfortunately the side roads are short too, every inch of London seems to have a road or turn.

However, my only (obviously too expensive) idea was a kind of in the sky cycle path like a monorail for bikes for city commuters.

There are poor drivers, and there are poor cyclists. It drives me mad when I see cyclists ignoring red lights. You can bet if a car hit them, the driver would be blamed though.

I think what would really help, from the point of view of drivers being more understanding of cyclists, would be if every family had a cyclist, so that idiotic hostile drivers would think, "I'll go carefully because that could be my auntie Nell," rather than "I'll cut close and get past as quick as I can, because why the hell should that cyclist be in front of me."

From the point of view of cyclists being more understanding of drivers, I do know a couple of idiotic arrogant cyclists who think they are always right, even when they're flying through red lights across pedestrian crossings. The one I'm thinking of in particular doesn't drive, maybe if he did that would help. I think it would also help if he had kids (he doesn't) so he realised why the lollipop man was so outraged as he steamed over the crossing.

On the other hand, cyclists are so much more vulnerable than drivers, it's not an equal battle.

Actually, most commuting cyclists go well over 25mph. An everyday cyclist will be doing 12mph. The average city speed.
Everyone who pays tax pays for the roads. Even those who neither drive nor cycle.

Not ere

You get the odd one going as fast as the cars but mainly it's older people crawling along on very narrow roads, especially hills, with a long queue of cars behind them unable to overtake.

Very environmentally unfriendly, that.

I see cyclist running red lights everyday, I see car drivers running red lights everyday and I see pedestrians crossing when they have a red light everyday. Unfortunately there are stupid self-centered people everywhere.

I quite like the idea of cyclists and drivers being able to experience the road from the others point of view, quite how you would do that though I'm not sure.

I hate the comments though when people paint all cyclist with the same brush, that they deserve what may happen to them. The other week I saw a cyclist piss off a driver, didn't see exactly how just heard a horn blarring and turned to see cyclist and driver gesticulating to each other. Anyway car driver then drove off and about 20 yds up the road pulled out to overtake another cyclist and then turned left right in front of him causing a very near miss. It was very clear that he had done on it on purpose because the previousl cyclist had upset him moments earlier.

Imagine if all those thousands of cyclists got into cars. The roads would be gridlocked....

we don't have narrow roads round here but it is cyclists overtaking cars - but still the motorist like to sit in queues, usually at 8.45am whilst the two main cycle paths into town the average speed is 15mph the road is 4ph - even the pedestrians over take the cars in the these parts.

Weird thing is if you asked a motorist to go and burn a 10 pound note they would think you where mad, but that is what they do sat in traffic each week at slow hour

Cyclists seem to have scant regard for car users.

I follow one every morning who doesnt cycle in the kerb, he deliberately sits in the middle of the lane so no one can over take him (a lot of on coming traffic); he mounts the pavement to avoid going through red lights. If he does get caught at a red light, he waits on the nearside when turning right -thus holding everyone up again. Quite deliberate IMHO.

CAR DRIVERS DO NOT PAY ROAD TAX!!!

And yet, oddly, if you don't pay your tax you can't use the roads, and you get to pay nothing if you don't use the roads. So it's a road tax.

I think if cyclists want to use roads they need a licenced for them and the road going bike. At the moment they have power without responsibly.

I really like the Swiss system. You have to insure your bike and display a badge on it at all times to prove you've done it. However...

As a cyclist (can't drive), I honestly believe things would improve if we enforced the laws already in place. Fine cyclists that run red lights and do something about cars that park in cycle lanes illegally forcing cyclists to swing out into the raid.

As a cyclist that obeys the law get so angry with cyclists that run lights, ride on pavements and generally behave like knobs. I also get angry about drivers who sit on their horn when I'm legally taking the centre of the lane if I'm turning or at a pinch point and those who don't indicate and nearly kill me when they suddenly turn across me.

Oh and troisgarcons, you cite one person as an example of all cyclists, perhaps I could say all drivers have scant regard for cyclists because one nearly killed me turning left across a bus lane without indicating. As it is, many drivers seem fine and I actually reported a Kingsmill lorry driver for good behaviour when he routinely made extra room for cyclists on my commute.

Perhaps we just need to be less 'us and them'.

Ivykaty, yes that's true here as well but the thing is a lot of the people in those cars can't find an alternative way to do all the things they've got to do.

I am lucky to live in a bit of town where the queues are normally going the opposite way. So my time in traffic jams is limited, and tbh there's nothing I dislike more than waiting in a queue - so I'll try and avoid them by driving some distance out of our way, if it's feasible.

But some poor sods can't. Trying to get to work on time when the buses are subject to the same delays as cars, bicycles have nowhere safe to go and you've got kids to drop off at school as well is going, sadly, to involve using a car for an awful lot of people. However much they try to manage their lives so it is possible to walk or cycle everywhere they have to be.

Imagine turning down a job in this climate because it's not on a bus route or it's in the next town and too far to cycle every morning.
I was passionately anti-car when I was young, and a part of me still resents cars very much and I hate the impact of the petrol and diesel, BUT I now understand that other people have their reasons for driving, as do I and while my ideal is not to drive I find myself stuck in the system a little bit, I suspect as most of us do, and I am choosing to compromise.

Basically because, well, I don't know another way to manage things. I think most people don't.

'Perhaps we just need to be less 'us and them'.'

Yes, that in its entirety. We're all doing our best. (well, most of us are...)

Also those years cycling to and from school in the same town I live in now, with cars and buses driving past me with total abject disregard for my safety (as a young girl) often almost touching our handlebars as me and my friends cycled along this busy road, taught me that cycling was like being in hell in the city.

I would arrive home after school out of breath, in severe pain sometimes from being around so much exhaust, almost unable to breathe. It was horrible. And being subject to near misses almost every week...I dunno but it put me off for life. When I see a cyclist now, in heavy traffic, especially in the rush hour I feel sorry for them but also think 'you must be stupid to put yourself through this'. Because it is an absolute nightmare in so many ways.

I wish cars would disappear totally and everyone used bicycles or silent tram systems and it would be lovely and clean and quiet. I just doubt that's going to happen for a while yet.