to want to know if teachers are going to work until they are 65+

[SaynotoDaisyMeadows]

Asked on another thread if teachers are planning on striking again later this month and was told that the ATL union have accepted pension proposals Does this mean that teachers have accepted that they will need to pay more into their pension pot and work past the age of 60? Or as a compromise been reached?

Given there was so much disruption caused and a great deal of media coverage it would be helpful to know if they are going to be striking again.

I hate threads like this bashing teachers. I wish that you, as parents, could be more grateful for the hard work that teachers put in for your children.

In 2005 The Journal of Managerial Stress ranked teaching as the second most stressful job in 2005. Only corporate managers are more stressed. According to the TUC teachers carry out the largest amount of unpaid overtime (11 hours and 36 minutes a week).

In 2008 the starting salary for teachers was 81% of the median graduate starting salary (not the mean or mode). This is less than the starting salary for nurses, not a profession known for its high pay levels.

All of this is published data from before the coalition took over. Things have gotten worse since this lot came to power and starting trying to destroy the public sector.

So, teachers are angry that their working conditions are poor and that the government are making it worse and people have a problem with that?

Don't get angry with the teachers - get angry for them!

What isn't widely reported is that there was already a big change in teacher's pensions, less that ten years ago. New entrants to teaching are not on the 'gold plated' pension their older colleagues are. This was to make the whole pension scheme more affordable. Obviously didn't work if only 5 years later they decided to make more changes.

I think a comparison with nursing is interesting. A friend is a nurse. Even given their anti-social hours etc and my holidays she earns more than I do. She also has none of the student debt as her training was NHS funded. I work in a state school, rather than a hospital, I have a higher qualification, yet I earn less and have more debt. I think the whole system of teacher recruitment and training, and university student loans need to be looked at again. If teachers pay isn't great, pension isn't great, they have to pay huge fees for the training, then really good people won't go into teaching. Which is why there is already a shortage of good maths, science, ICT teachers. They can make 4 or 5 times the salary working in the private sector.

YY to MammaBrussels and vj32.

Don't forget, they want to make teaching a MA entry level profession too, you know, to make children cleverer and all that.

More student debt? Yep.

Higher qualifications? Yep.

Greater respect? Don't hold your breath.

Just one of my DH's set goals for the year (- there are 8 goals -for him to go up a pay grade) was to get ALL of his teachers (bar one they're trying to manage out) an 'Outstanding' in classroom observation.

Have you any idea how hard that is?!?

Quite simply it's 70-80 hours a week hard. I'm so tempted to put up a picture of my hollow eyed young, fit, runner of a dh - he will not live to 50 at this pace and he's only 33.

As he went off this morning at 6am to a 15.5 hour school day (parents evening tonight).

Most people have no clue what it's like to be a middle manager in an inner city Secondary school with all the associated problems of a very mixed community - most of whom enter in year 7 and 8 with no English and yet attain 5 GCSE's. I wish people would just think of the amount of work it takes to get them there.

He had 2 Czech girls enter last week in Year 10 with very rudimentary English (I know this because he phoned me up last week and sent me out to get a dictionary so he could talk to them) and his boss said "It's a shame that we have set your goals already as we really need these 2 to get 5 GCSE's too" - hoping that DH would make it his special project or something

And yes of course he has an MA.

I'd have no problem if the teaching qualification was an M Ed rather than a PGCE as long as teachers were paid more for having the higher level qualification and were treated with respect by the government and society as a whole.

We are professionals, we behave as professionals we are treated like shit.

Orenish
Yes I am and as someone with more than one member of the family having been in the police I feel pretty well equipped to do that.Even my own dad told me when I chose teaching in my 20 s- you would be better off in the police-"Money for old rope" was his expression. He has now been retired for over 20 years, had his mortgage paid off by the police for a big chunk of his life- all the ex police I know are having very nice lives post police and are young enough to enjoy it.Many have second jobs as well as their pensions- all have second homes abroad....my sil's dh has only 11 years to go- he is 41.He gets fantastic overtime pay and seems to get to relax on his days off unlike any teachers I know.
I also know teachers who left teaching to join the police and say it is less stressful so yes I think teachers are pretty underappreciated and god am i glad to be out of that game because it is punishing in many UK schools.
A lot of police work is desk bound and of course there are stressful parts but it is not relentless as teaching is where every hour you are fighting fires and managing often unmanageable behaviour, which takes a toll on teachers.They have my full support.

Most secondary school teachers and a lot of primary teachers could not do the job effectively past the age of 60. Anyone who doubts this should try to spend a day in a comprehensive classroom say middle set year 9/10 and see if they would want someone older than 60 to be doing it. Its not just about the teachers its about the children too. Ask your own parents-you are a lot more tired at 60 than you were at 30/40. As for the police remember who is dealing with the young offenders every day before they are arrested.

You should worry about teachers? Someone I know is still supposed to be driving a 44 tonne 40ft HGV lorry at nearly 70!

It's not teacher bashing to point out that they are not the only ones facing cuts.

Now it doesn't really matter why we need to make cuts really, the fact is that the government DO need to make cuts to balance the books.

Hundreds of thousands of public sector workers have been made redundant, pay freezes across the board. Private sector workers also have the same circumstances. I've not had a payrise for three years and my bills are going up. Pension.....ha ha ha ha. yeah right.

In that sort of context I think teachers need to be realistic and as much as I think they do an incredibly tough job, the simple fact is that cuts have to be made somewhere.

Nurses, police, firemen, civil servants, council workers...they're all facing cuts. Hard to argue that someone else should face a bigger cut so that teachers can continue to receive a golden plated pension. Or that they should be allowed to retire early whilst a nurse can work longer?

What was once promised is now clearly unaffordable. Bitching about it won't change the fundamental truth. In that context changes must be made. It's up to each teacher to decide if the new terms are acceptable to them or not. If not, they are free to find a new profession. Just like I am free to go get another job because clearly I ain't getting a payrise this year either.

Grey lady- good point!
Niceguy-I am partly in agreement but the teachers' pensions have not been goldplated for a long time and I am not sure that all state workers are having the same kind of cuts- are they really? Have they changed police pensions? I think we will hear about it of they do.What about government ministers' pensions?
I just look at police I know and see that they are not facing the same extreme measures that the teaching profession is at the moment. I may be wrong on this but it seems teaching has been targeted and I think that is unfair unless every state worker is to lose their benefits in the same way- again I do not see this with friends in the civil service-yes they may lose their jobs but are then free to choose another and they seem to be getting healthy redundanciy packages that I have not known to be matched by teachers.
Teachers ( many)do an amazing job dealing with the young people that our society and more liberal parenting techniques seem to be creating and I am grateful for all their hard work and support them standing up for themselves.
I feel like I got out of the trench line and now get to enjoy my life but they really are at the front line and pay a high personal price for the salary they get-I saw so many go down with stress or just lead a very confined life due to their relentless workload.

i agree niceguy - What was once promised is now clearly unaffordable....because we are living longer.

DP is a HT & in the NUT - he accepts everyone will have to work longer including teachers, teaching or in a second career. that said, he will strike on any votes to strike along with his union brothers & sisters (i will threaten to sell his CD collection to make up for lost salary...as usual!)

The National Audit Office has confirmed that the Teachers' Pension Scheme is already sustainable following the revisions made in 2007. Teachers? pensions are affordable in their current design and costs of the scheme are falling (NSEAD).

Teachers have overpaid into the Teachers' Pensions Scheme. If the over-payments were still in the fund we wouldn't be having this discussion. Teachers wouldn't be being asked to work longer, pay more, get less.

'I find it strange how we moan constantly about teachers on here but the fact that the armed forces can retire at 40, receive their pension at 55 and do not contribute at all to their own pensions goes unmentioned. Why on earth should they get a totally free pension. Would save the government a fortune if they contributed!'

HM Forces can draw an unindexed link pension at 38 for officers if they leave, but that won't be much,as the longer you serve and the higher you climb, the more your pension is.

AFPS= Armed Forces Pension Scheme

Depending on which pension scheme you are in (AFPS75 or 05), you get your pension on retirement, (so dh will get his at 53), and some at 55 if in 05, and some later (by which time the govt actuaries are betting many ex service personnel will have died). There is going to be a new (but obviously not improved) AFPS 15, which will not be final salary but career average.

If the govt likes to pay the Armed Forces the 8% salary restriction they have which is for their pension contribution, then, yes, I expect we would make contributions. It isn't a 'free' pension at all. Paying the 8% wouldn't save the govt a thing. Please do your research and get your facts right before you post.

I'm slightly hesitant to post as I do agree that teachers are overworked and undervalued.However,I'm going to.
I do think that there are many jobs where people are going to be expected to work until they are 68 that are as difficult, or even more so, than teaching. The examples that come to my mind are nurses (can be a very physical job) and manual workers in general.
I am a surgeon. I expect to have to work until I am 68. I don't mind to much, but what do you think my patients will think about it?

too much

The police are.

They have a recruitment freeze for anything up to 6 years in some areas all while officers leave through retirement or maternity or sickness etc. The force my father joined is geographically the same but everything else differs to the one my dp joined (and subsequently left due to stress).

It is a bloody hard job. Would you prefer to clear up an rta or a classroom? Break up a playground fight or a domestic? Stand in front of 30kids or on someone's doorstep to tell them their relative has died?

Or we could compare teachers to social workers which would be a better comparison

By then surely you would have made it to the dizzy heights and have a team of SHOs and registrars, so you would supervise, and only do the really difficult ops?

I would be reassured by an older surgeon as most doctors I see these days look as if they should be still at school, rather than in the hospital (mind you, I do go to a teaching hospital which is why all these infants are running around in white coats and playing at Doctors!!!).

scaryteacher
I have reached the dizzy heights! I am a consultant . We don't have "senior" or "junior" consultants in the uk yet. This is not the thread to go into how out of hours surgical care is provided, but even if I stopped doing emergency work (which isn't feasible in the area I am in), I do still have to operate. I agree that experience is very important, but being able to see ok, not have shaky hands and be able to stand for however long an operation takes is pretty important, too.

mammabrussels - thank you for putting that so well.

My DH is a teacher, I am a nurse. When our 3rd child was born, I changed jobs to allow me to be at home in the day for school & nursery runs, to fulfill my desire to be a SAHM but work evenings / weekends so that we still had a second wage coming in. On paper, his wage looks fantastic. In reality, it just about covers our essential outgoings - bills, mortgage, a tiny tiny bit of savings. My wage covers the debt we both accumulated over the years. Some left over from uni, some from my maternity leave, etc etc.

He, and the majority of his colleagues, recognise the current pension system will have to change, along with many other key workers (like nurses, police etc). No, he doesn't want to work well into his late 60s at the current pace of teaching. I've seen on this thread people comparing teaching to the police, and others saying that it is nothing like it. Most of my side of the family are in the police and actually, there are several elements of the jobs which are comparable. Both have a high level of social work in their job (and the lack of social workers / why is an entire new thread), both face aggression and violence on a daily basis. Many roles within the police and teaching are now having to justify their role, are facing huge budget cuts, and feel that they are unable to meet the expectations set by the government and public alike. The same goes for us Nurses. The public have MASSIVE expectations of what 'service' they think they are entitled too without actually having any idea that they are expecting the impossible. There simply aren't enough of us... they can't recruit enough teachers or nurses and there are no longer the jobs available to the graduates just coming out of uni.

We both recognise that we are lucky to have (what it perceived to be) safe jobs - by this I mean we are less likely to be out of work, or have a worse later life than my BIL who is a self employed tradesman. But, both of us studied at degree level (and if anyone thinks the bursary the NHS gives to student nurses is enough to fund their studies without going into debt is having a laugh - but again we recognise that it is better than nothing) - and didn't just walk into our careers carefree. You may be able to access the degree course with lower GCSEs but that doesn't mean you will be able to pass it. Or that you would be able to stand alone, in a room full of 30 students who don't want to be there, possibly with one or two of them armed with potentially lethel weapons, to not only be in control of that environment but also get those students to learn... and then have OFSTED come along and judge your ability to teach when your efforts are not backed up by the parents / guardians / families at home.

I challenge anyone who thinks that teachers have a priviledged job, which comes without risks to walk a mile in their shoes. Put me in A&E on a Friday night with all the drunks, the people who don't need to be there but are demanding to be seen and NOW, with the woman who wished the 16 year old trauma victim in resus dead so the Doctor was free to see her.... but never, ever, ask me to go into a school and teach.

Its not just physical though it is emotional as well. For a good teacher it is never 'just a job. Most people can think of teachers who have enhanced their lives in some way. Most have learned skills at school which last forever-not academic facts but working together,courtesy etc. You never finish when you go home and honestly as you approach 60 you just don't cope as well-you get so tired so you take short cuts-rely too much on work sheets etc. Some go on doing well and then die within months of retiring. I knew at least 4 who had that happen. The only people who are qualified to comment on teachers' work are those who have walked a mile in a teacher's shoes.

Mrs Custard policing is a hard job, which is reflected in the fact that police officers are paid more than teachers (despite teaching being a graduate profession).

Thetokengirl - well done you on being a Consultant - hence the username?

I am in Belgium atm, and here the prof seems to be wheeled out only when necessary. When I had an op last year, the prof didn't operate (a more junior plastics guy did, but made a great job of it), and a junior doc (she was very very young)took out my stitches. Another time I had to see the haematologists as I have an auto immune disease, and I saw I think (my Flemish isn't brilliant) either the registrar or the SHO. He said I could see the consultant, but that it would cost more.

to some extent it depends on your view of what makes a job difficult. "Nursing can be a very physical job" said one poster - well being on your feet from 8.30 -4 (no-one teaches sitting down) is fairly physical. During my day I move between various buildings, climb 6-8 flights of (steep, medieval) stairs carrying 30 books, move through crowds of teenagers all bigger than me and project my voice across their noise to keep order and teach. Meanwhile, in a lesson I will be giving out worksheets, subject knowledge and "behave" looks all at the same time - supervising and helping students do a task set whilst at no time having my back to the class (neat trick whilst writing on the board). I will mentally jump from 1st form to 6th form in 2 mins flat, try and keep my A level subject knowledge up to scratch enough to teach Oxbridge candidates, answer parental emails, prep for a parents evening which will finish at 9.30 tonight. I will get home at 10pm and be up to be back in school by 8.30 (It would be 7.30 but I have to drop my two kids off at childcare). This list is by no means exhaustive. Of course we are not the only ones with a tough job or facing cuts but we are some of them and it is not our fault if the media choose to focus on us so much - presumably because as others have said, teachers' actions etc affect a far greater proportion of the population than many others and on a daily basis.