Even as an atheist, non-homophobic, I think it is ridiculous to expect religions to conduct gay marriage. AIBU?

[Wamster]

I mean why would they if they only believe marriage to be between a man and a woman? I DON'T see it that way-as far as I'm concerned, marriage is a legal issue and as gay people already have civil partnership which offer same legal rights as marriage, I find the moaning about gay marriage irritating.

But that is besides the point: the fact is that some religions only believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and it is ridiculous to force them to change their minds without seriously messing that religion up.

People cannot expect religions to mould themselves to a nice politically-correct world. I accept this as an atheist. It's time the religious did, too.

Posie - religion does not provide the excuse. If you got rid of religion today, there would still be wars, intolerance, predjudice etc. It is the nature of man sadly and has very little to do with a religion which, on the whole, asks people to forgive, to love their neighbour, to never judge (he who casts the first stone?), to help the poor, to not be hypocrites. Even if you don't beleive in anything, just reading the New Testament and it's message of peace and love to EVERYONE is something that surely cannot be argued with?

Wars are not religious, they are about intolerance, greed, politics, power etc and as this thread shows, someone does not need to be religious in order to be bigoted and aggressive.

NarkedPuffin, they can.

Gay people can have a civil partnership in a registry office which is exactly the same as marriage, the only difference is that it is not called marriage.

However heterosexual people cannot have a civil partnership. A couple in Bristol tried it and they were refused.

I have no respect for any religions at all. But I do at least possess some respect for those who actually follow the rules of their religion. What I cannot have any respect for are the ones who just want the nice bits and reject the rest e.g. homophobia.

Sorry, but myself, The Pope, and the Archbishop of Canterbury accept that within the rules of religion homosexual marriage is unacceptable.

This does NOT make me homophobic just capable of seeing how religions think about homosexuality.

I'm always interested on these threads that there is (generally) tolerance for people of every sexual orientation (as there should be), (generally) tolerance for people of every race (as there should be), but often a massive intolerance towards religions.

If someone has a faith - whether that is Muslim, or Catholic, or CE or Jewish or whatever, that is an intrinsic part of them. So a statement like;
"Actually I would like to see a complete demise of all religion." is actually as bigoted as saying "I would like to see a complete stop to gay relationships".

Just saying. I don't agree with everything done in the name of religion, but then I don't suppose someone who is gay agrees with everything done in the name of gay rights, or all fathers agree with everything done by Fathers4Justice etc. Doesn't mean it's ok to say "I would like to see an end to something that is an integral part of millions of people".

I don't get your point.

So you say religion is rubbish but you think that those who follow religion should do so to the extremes?

Despite some religions such as catholicism merely having guidelines and not rules?

What does it matter to you though, if it is all rubbish? Why should you care?

You sound very angry and bitter. I can see how religions view homosexuality too. I can see both sides of the argument very well. I don't get narked about it though.

Well said Lily.

Lily I agree with what you said about religion. But I am unhappy that some religions are trying to prevent some other religions from marrying gay people.

TheRhubarb: "I at least have respect for every single religion"

Every single religion? Even the ones that preach child sacrifice?

wamster, how many times do you want people to explain that 'religions' is an unacceptable generalization that makes no sense?

Yes, many Christian groups believe homosexuality is wrong and that gay marriage is wrong. Others do not. You seem very sure that the ones who believe homosexuality is wrong are 'following the rules of religion' whereas the others are 'making it up'. You argue this so aggressively, mocking homosexual religious people as 'silly' or 'ridiculous', without the slightest compassion for how it might feel to be devoutly religious and also homosexual.

I do not think that every gay person feels the same way about this issue and I'm certain not every religious person does. But you seem to think it's all about you, as an atheist, dictating what is right. It comes across as very arrogant and quite prejudiced. What is your vested interest in insisting so strongly that others are silly to believe what they do? Why not just let them go their way and worry about your own problems?

Tbh I think the crux of the issue is that there is precedent in law for religious organisations being forced through equality law to either take part in things which are against their religion, or close.

And I imagine that foremost in the minds of the Catholic church is the issue of the Catholic Adoption agencies which had to close, because they were obliged by equality law to place children with gay couples.

I don't have a problem gay couples parenting, but if it is against your religion, you couldn't do this. And certainly a Muslim agency would never ever countenance this. Basically equality law says that if you 'provide a service' then it must not be witheld in discriminatory way. So for the Catholic adoption agencies, the only option was to withdraw the service.

But the church can't stop doing weddings, because that would be against their religion as well - so whilst gay marriage is not 'legal', they can't be forced to perform gay marriages in a church, once it becomes legal, it will be up to the courts as to whether or not the church has to do gay marriages.

It's a problem of semantics (ie whether or not it's called a marriage or not), that has all sorts of knock-on effects.

I believe that if people are going to follow a religion they should do it properly and not piss about cherry-picking the bits they like.

I care because the whole issue of gay marriage is irritating. Marriage is objectively a legal contract and gay people already have civil partnership (which I am 100% in favour of) -which is probably all most of them wanted anyway. I bet all this fuss is coming from misguided heterosexuals.
But, no, not good enough anymore. Now we've got bloody David Cameron talking about gay marriage as if it matters (I agree with the poster who says it is a massive deflection from really important issues).
It doesn't matter at all. The fact is that gay people already have the legal equivalent of marriage in the form of CP's.
Who gives a monkey's if it is not called 'marriage'? So what? Aren't people grown up enough not to care what their legal title is?

Fuss over nothing and it grates.

well said Lily

Why does it matter what you 'believe' about how people should follow religion?

Since Christianity itself is all about 'cherry picking' (Jesus selected the bits of the OT and Jewish law he wanted to keep), I think you'll find many religious people disagree with you. Why do you think your view of religion - as an atheist - holds an sway? Why does it give you the right to mock religious gay people, as you have on this thread by calling them 'silly' and 'ridiculous'?

I really don't care if it irritates you.

Civil partnerships should be abolished. They were invented to appease the people who feel that gay marriage should not be allowed and it kept us "gays" quiet for a while. Yes a lot of gay people do get civil partnered (that's what we have to call it because we are not legally married) to get rights for each other and our families. Civil partnerships are part of the underlying homophobic attitude people still have. You know the kind who"don't mind gay people but" people. The kind who don't get why we can't just accept civil partnerships as equal to marriage. Marriage should be between two consenting adults. Gender should not come into question.

We can't call it marriage. That's the issue. That's the segregation. That's the problem. And to think we should just accept it is wrong.

Religion is individual choice. You can be gay and religious. And you should have the right to get married in a church if you do wish.

Can I also point out that religion can be blamed for a lot of things? It doesn't seem to like women in general! BUT that's only some people's take on it. You can interpret the Koran, the bible etc in many many ways. There are plenty of gay friendly churches. Plenty of religious people who have no qualms with sexuality. You are tarring all religious people with one very large brush. It us unfair.

Op you are, quite frankly, nuts. HTH

From an atheist lesbian mother who would like to get married one day.

And really, do we really need another thread like this?? Wasn't there one yesterday??

This thread is basically about an atheist saying 'well, I don't know anything about religion and don't believe it, but I can tell you how to do it right and you do it right by oppressing the gays ... but I'm no homophobe, me!'

Sometimes, I do just want to bang my head against a brick wall.

Lily, race and sexuality are not like religion. People are not born Muslim or Christian and the acquisition of such religions is usually cultural. Just because lots of people are Muslim or Christian that does not mean that their beliefs are automatically deserving of respect or tolerance.

...as an atheist, what the f*ck does it matter to you anyway???

Wamster yes I do believe that you are right there, this is something set up by heterosexuals to appease homosexuals and it is distinctly patronising. The motives of the government have nothing to do with equality and as Lily says, the legal issues that have not been taken care of could wreak havoc not just in Christian churches but also in Mosques.

Yet I still don't understand if you think all religion is rubbish, why you should care what people choose to believe? That sounds very personal imo so I'll not get into that argument.

I'm not mocking anybody; I have expressed a view that to be gay and religious when, for example, the Catholic church regards gay people as pitiable at best is really silly. I mean: why? Why would any gay person want to be involved with a religion that treats them with such contempt?

Would I ever wish to be a member of a club that declared contempt for short people (I am short)? No, I would not.

DoomCats, sorry, but people who really, really know about religion i.e. The Archbishop of Canterbury and The Pople -who is after all God's representative on earth- are against gay marriage. Know more than them, do you?

TheCunningStunt - would you really want to see churches forced to marry gay couples? Wouldn't that be a hollow victory?

A gay couple cannot get married. A straight couple cannot have a civil partnership. Yet both ceremonies can be performed in a registry office with all the same legal rights. So does it matter what you call it?

Calling people 'silly' is mocking.

Not everyone (thank God, I would venture to say) is like you.

Perhaps that is why some people are different.

If you genuinely want to know why some people are gay and religious, why not ask the question instead of assuming you know the reason is because they're silly.

I am religious even though I do not agree with all of the C of E's official stance. It is an interesting question, how you reconcile faith and other ideology. But it's not a question I want to debate with you, because you started in by being rude and assuming you - an atheist - must know all about how to do religion right.

Er, no they can't Rhubarb. They can't get married in a registry office, even though religion can't even be mentioned there!

Civil marriage has nothing to do with religion, and yet the government went to the trouble of creating a new and totally separate thing - civil partnership - rather than allowing gay couples to marry.

Well that's you....you are neither gay or religious so your opinion doesn't really mean all that much on your own arguement . You did post in AIBU. You are not matthew wright are you? Looking for tomorrow's topics?

Religion legitimises and reinforces homophobia.

Who says this is by heterosexuals for homosexuals? Who says that homosexuals see civil partnerships as equal?

And I see no issue with being intolerant against patriarchal constructs that condemn people on the basis of who they're sexually attracted to.