Even as an atheist, non-homophobic, I think it is ridiculous to expect religions to conduct gay marriage. AIBU?

[Wamster]

I mean why would they if they only believe marriage to be between a man and a woman? I DON'T see it that way-as far as I'm concerned, marriage is a legal issue and as gay people already have civil partnership which offer same legal rights as marriage, I find the moaning about gay marriage irritating.

But that is besides the point: the fact is that some religions only believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and it is ridiculous to force them to change their minds without seriously messing that religion up.

People cannot expect religions to mould themselves to a nice politically-correct world. I accept this as an atheist. It's time the religious did, too.

And telling us what is written in the NT is great Rhubarb, but it's not the same message in the OT or Koran is it? Not so much 'love thy neighbour' as 'fear the wrath of God and kill your enemies'.

I'm not entirely convinced that the world is paying a lot of attention to these men in white dresses and their imaginary friend who apparently think it's OK to abuse young children but not OK for two adults who love each other to demonstrate that commitment legally.

I said that Narked, I said that they can have civil partnerships in a registry office, I didn't say they could get married.

Yet both are the same thing are they not? In the eyes of the law they are the same. In the eyes of the church, one is a union in front of God and one is not. You will never change that no matter how often you force it. You might one day force priests to marry gay couples in a church but you will never get the church to recognise it as such, which is why I said about it being a hollow victory.

wamster, plenty of other 'people who know about religion' are pro gay marriage. As has been explained several times on this thread.

On this issue - sure, I feel happy to say I totally disagree with the Pope, on this as on many issues. Why wouldn't I? I'm not Catholic. It's not my religion. You do understand they're all different, right? There's not this one faith called 'religion' where everyone believes the same.

More problematic is the fact I'm C of E and disagree with the Archibishops. Well, I think they are wrong. It's an issue. Once they thought that women priests were wrong too ... but look what happened, eh? The Church changes. People like me, who're within the Church but disagree with its stance, have always existed. And often we help bring about change.

Therhubarb I wouldn't want to see anyone forced to do anything. BUT I think churches that want to preform gay marriages should be allowed. I think that religious gay people should have the right to get married in their place of worship.

Why does it matter what we call it? Because a spade is a spade. A rose is a rose. Why should it be called something entirely different JUST because it's for gay people??? It's separating us! Is it so hard to see that???marriage is marriage. A civil partnership is not a marriage. And for the record I think CPs should be open to all, not just gay people. But really what I think is we should all have the right to get married and to call it that.

DoomCats, If I were a member of the C of E, I'd like to think that I'd take my guidance from the Archbishop-after all he is my guide. You are the arrogant one as you don't even accept guidance from your own leader.

No, they're not the same thing in the eyes of the law, or they wouldn't have bothered with all the paperwork involved in creating a whole new legal state! They may confer similar rights and responsibilities, but they aren't the same.

My vicar would like to see gay marriages happen in church. Lots of C of E vicars would. I would not be surprised to see it happen.

I think Kritiq's point (sorry, I know lots of other said it too but I remember her NN as it's in capitals!) that this is all a stunt to distract us from the cuts and other issues is being proven correct.

Posie - I don't know too much about the Qu'ran but I have heard from other Muslims that the book can be interpreted in lots of ways as the Bible can and in fact that it advocates equality for all men and women. As I said though, I haven't read it so don't actually know this.

Of course Gay40 ALL priest are paedophiles and of course I must be equally stupid and pathetic to believe in my imaginery friend. If this thread is going to degenerate into insults then I shall leave you to it because I do take these things personally and I don't see why I should remain on a thread where people are going to bash me and my intelligence for believing in God. I tried to be reasonable and I can understand both sides of this argument, but I will not tolerate abuse of anyone, either religious or none, gay or straight.

wamster, it is perfectly normal for Anglicans to disagree with the Archbishop. It happens all the time. Before Rowan Williams was Archbishop, he disagreed with George Carey. So what?

Please don't start making this about what I should do as a Christian - it is really none of your business. I will worry about my conscience and you worry about yours.

It's not really an insult. They do wear white dresses and talk to someone who isn't there. And the furore over the child abuse is a well-known hypocrisy. Of course this is not all of them, but I didn't say it was.
It says in the Bible "you must obey the law." So yet again, another example of the white dressed people making it suit themselves.
Pathetic.

I think that if you agree with gay marriage and claim to be a Christian you have completely missed what Christianity is about and should get yourself out of it. Like my gay cousin did when his Priest told him he was going to hell for 'buggering another man'.

And another thing, these people who are spouting the language of homophobic hate crime need to be arrested immediately. It's a failure of the law to keep allowing it to be said.
More crimes to add to the slate.

And he (my cousin) was bloody well right to get out of it, too.

What is Christianity 'all about', wamster? Do tell.

As an atheist, your point of view will of course be deeply valuable to me.

Gay40 - phrases like 'imaginary friend' are really intolerant and pretty offensive actually - because a Christian truly and intrinsically believes in a present God. Would it be more or less offensive to say to a gay person "You may think you love each other, but that's all in your head, because men are supposed to love women?".

PLEASE NOTE. I do not think this. I do not think it is ok to think this. I do think it is right to respect other people's beliefs, and other people's rights.

I've just been trying to find out what the current archbishop of Canterbury thinks about gay marriage... its quite hard to tell but I think he's saying that cultural acceptance has to predede the law being changed. Seems like he's not really agin it, just waiting till its totally clear what the societal norm is before getting off the fence. Bit hard to follow a leader like that!

You know what is pathetic? Intolerance of any fucking kind.

I can see why homosexuals want to get married. I can see why the church doesn't want them to change the definition of marriage.

I understand everyone's pov but then someone will come along who likes to make pissing presumptions about religion, about God being an imaginery being and us believers are meant to just lump it are we? You can't and won't dare to insult Mohammed but because us catholics are so bloody tolerant we are fair game?

Paedophiles, just for your information, are also amongst our teachers, so perhaps we should burn down schools? Paedos are also women, nursery assistants, babysitters, scout leaders and in all walks of life where we place our trust in them. So take your ignorant views Gay40 and shove them.

He's more than a bit wishy-washy, I agree, grimma. I was really disappointed, I thought he'd follow where Carey started out and then go further.

But I do hold out hope and I think a fair about of Anglican change happens from the grassroots. I would imagine it is very hard to see people who come to your church and to deny their relationship is just as deserving of a church ceremony as anyone else.

Personally I find the whole issue of homosexuality in 2012 deeply sad. We're expected to accept far too much shit in the name of religion, from hidden women to the evil of anal sex, cutting bots off of newborn babies and anything else that if not done in the name of God would be abhorrent.

bits not bots

When I look back, I think it's one of the major reasons I am not a Catholic.

I have a lovely, kind mother, who, if I had been born gay, would have coped with it, but would never have regarded my relationship with a partner as equal to that I have with my husband. I have a father who is a true christian ie he lives his life in a compassionate, generous, charitable way. He would have been praying for my soul as he believes gay sex to be a sin. He would not have allowed me to share a room with a woman in his house. If I had given birth to children with a same sex partner, my mother would not have regarded the partner as their parent - in spite of the fact that she has always said that being a parent is about who is up all night with the child when it's running a temp more than who contributes the genetic material.

When I realised what religion can do to good people it turned me off it. It makes no sense.

LilyBolero: "phrases like 'imaginary friend' are really intolerant and pretty offensive actually - because a Christian truly and intrinsically believes in a present God."

But lots of people truly and intrinsically believe lots of things. 2,000 years ago, the Greeks and Romans worshipped numerous gods that they truly and intrinsically believed in. Were those gods less imaginary because people really believed in them?

That is really rotten narked.

I do think religion in the hands of humans is used for bad ends. I guess it comes down to whether you think you have a hope of reforming what humans do in the name of religion, or not. I think you can hope, but I get why people don't always feel that way.

TheRhubarb: "Paedophiles, just for your information, are also amongst our teachers, so perhaps we should burn down schools? Paedos are also women, nursery assistants, babysitters, scout leaders and in all walks of life where we place our trust in them. So take your ignorant views Gay40 and shove them."

Ah, a lovely display of tolerance there, TheRhubarb. You're an example to us all.

The thing that bothered people about the church was not that there were a few isolated paedophiles but that the child abuse was so extensive, and that it was so systematically covered up by the church authorities. We haven't really seen this happen in, say, the scouts, or in nurseries.