Even as an atheist, non-homophobic, I think it is ridiculous to expect religions to conduct gay marriage. AIBU?

[Wamster]

I mean why would they if they only believe marriage to be between a man and a woman? I DON'T see it that way-as far as I'm concerned, marriage is a legal issue and as gay people already have civil partnership which offer same legal rights as marriage, I find the moaning about gay marriage irritating.

But that is besides the point: the fact is that some religions only believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and it is ridiculous to force them to change their minds without seriously messing that religion up.

People cannot expect religions to mould themselves to a nice politically-correct world. I accept this as an atheist. It's time the religious did, too.

DoomCat: "It is worth saying, btw, that to apply an argument that human morals change over time to Christian theology isn't logical. God is outside time. From His perspective there is no such thing as time."

Of course it's logical. But when did logic ever come into it? As an atheist, I find the idea that people can make a leap from believing that a divine being created the universe to believing they know exactly what that divine being wants of us, right down to stuff like what kind of food you eat and who you have sex with quite mind-boggling.

They are big on natural law

I know my viewpoint is quite simplistic, but I thought the bible and religion was open to interpretation, so I don't understand why they are unable to interpret it differently, or even think about doing so.

I have not come across natural law before, what's it all about? Are we talking laws of nature, as in, man + woman with penis and vagina make a baby? Actual mechanics of the process type thing? It did occur to me that being gay is natural too as you are born that way, but, as I don't know what natural law is all about that might be bollocks.

With the catholic church being against IVF, that must make for quite a dilemma if you find yourself a catholic with fertility issues. I would wonder how many follow it to the letter when faced with reality?

Why are catholics allowed to use contraception? That's interference, and I know plenty who do indulge. A practicing catholic I know stated they didn't believe in sex before marriage, yet had a child and a mortgage before committing.

My only point in mentioning that is that certain parts of religion do seem to change based on the times and society.

(They were married in a catholic church too obvs)

Doom plenty of people thought that Paul was worth listening to regarding God. There is certainly an argument that he is the founder of Christianity.

I wonder if people think that other people's opinions regarding god are just as, or even less valid than their own unless they agree with them, then why they bother with organised religion at all.

Fair point hackmum about belief not being logical.

Cross post. noble - I know plenty of people think that. But the point is, people have been disagreeing about what constitutes religious authority for as long as we have recorded history.

It's not a new thing. It is a fundamental Christian practice to interrogate what the limits of human understanding and authority to interpret religion are. It would be immensely more radical to get rid of that interrogation, than it would be to ignore St. Paul - and believe me, I say that thinking that it is pretty radical to ignore St. Paul.

It makes no sense to ask why people bother with organized religion if they wish to question its interpretations, because organized religion is built on the questioning of interpretation.

To answer some of your questions:

Natural law is that which is taken from nature. So in effect it is the natural course of things, such as sex leading to children etc. Yes you could say that being born gay IS in fact natural and this is a point where I admit not being able to provide an answer for that from the church.

Most catholics do take leave of certain 'guidelines' within the church, and these are not catholic laws, they are only guidelines. The church says it would prefer it if you did not use IVF because not all of the foetus are implanted into a woman and so it goes against their views on abortion and again, they cite natural law and if a woman cannot have children then they would simply shrug their shoulders and suggest she adopts.

Catholics are not 'allowed' to use contraception. Again, the church does not believe in using man-made devices to prohibit the natural process of fertilisation. But many of us do use contraception because we don't want 20 kids and I think the church have just had to accept this is what we do.

Neither do the church believe in living together before marriage, although I did and many others still do. It's against their guidelines though as you shouldn't have sex before marriage. Nice idea but it's never going to happen.

Thanks Rhu

I think the confusion is that the church has laws. It doesn't. It has guidelines. You can't be thrown out of the catholic church for breaking their guidelines but they can refuse you Holy Communion.

The church does realise that many people do break the guidelines and would never refuse to marry a couple who lived together first and had kids. As my priest once said to me "the church can learn a lot from young people" and I do believe that living together makes sense before you get married, although I do also understand why the church asks that you abstain before getting married.

I am definitely a long-time sitter on the fence as I can see both points of view.

Rhubarb, YOU put the comments here, not Boy George or anyone else. YOU chose to use the comments. In any case, just as no one woman could ever speak for the views of all women, no one gay man could ever speak for the views of all gay men, surely.

Point still stands - if there are faith groups that want to offer marriage in their faith tradition to both same sex and opposite sex couples, what right do other faith groups have to tell them that they can't?

Erm, actually I think I made it clear that I was speaking about Boy George's comments that this is not what gay couples particularly wanted. Yes I chose to use those comments to illustrate how the government were acting for their own agenda and were not, in fact, acting out of the desire to make things more equal for gays. Is that ok with you or would you like to make more out of that? Why not presume that because I'm catholic I'm also homophobic?

KRITIQ, Heterosexual privilege? Don't think so. More a case of logic: god believes marriage to be exclusively between a man and a woman. HIS view, not mine.

DoomCats you and people like you, demonstrate perfectly to me why religion is rubbish becuse you cannot even accept that your religion may contain elements you disagree with. I've actually more respect for fundamentalists as it least they take the writings seriously.

Religions tend on the whole to abhor homosexuality. If you don't like the way religions are become an atheist and stop condoning religion.

Wamster - so you think religion is rubbish based on one poster's view?

May I suggest that you have taken one poster's views to confirm your own beliefs and ignored the rest?

No, I think religion is rubbish full stop.

'god believes marriage to be exclusively between a man and a woman. HIS view, not mine.'

For goodness' sake, educate yourself about religion before you embarrass yourself further. I know this is a harsh comment but you just don't seem to be reading any of the posts on this thread.

And why would any gay person with a smidgeon of self-respect want to get married in a religion that thinks them not to be as good as heterosexual people? I wouldn't and my guess is that the vast majority of gay people don't, either.
They've been told all their lives by the despicable Catholic church that they are second-class citizens.

The only embarrassment here is you, DoomCats, and your cognitive dissonance and general stupidity in not recognising that religions tend to deplore homosexuality.

'Religion is rubbish'

'If you don't like the way religions are become an atheist'

'I don't think gays should be allowed to have children'

Why even bother entering a debate if all the answers are so straightforward and obvious? It's a shame, because there's some really good posts on this thread.

(Oh and bijou, maybe you could reflect on how you would actually STOP gays from having children. I didn't ask anyone's permission before becoming a lesbian mother - I just went ahead and did it - and unless you are proposing taking children like mine into care you might want to consider what possible outcome - other than increased homophobic bullying - your views are likely to achieve.)

Oh, I am not embarrassed. I don't think I'm stupid either (but thanks).

I am well aware (as I have said, on posts in this thread) that, sadly, there are still many people within my own denomination of Christianity that do not want to accept gay marriage. I think that is wrong and sad, as I have said.

I do not see how it gives you cause to call religious homosexuals 'silly' and 'ridiculous' and insist they are foolish because of their beliefs.

I think athiesm is rubbish full stop.

Actually I don't because I at least have respect for every single religion and even those who believe in diddly squat. My ds' godfather is an atheist who read out his own promises to our son that were not religious. I want to bring them up to respect, tolerate and understand everyone and every belief. It seems ironic that a thread on homosexuality and predjudices should highlight that predjudices exist everywhere, not just in religion.

I hope that before my children are adults the excuse religion gives people to be homophobic will have vanished. Actually I would like to see a complete demise of all religion.

It is, thankfully, very rare to come across either atheists or religious posters on MN who express bigoted homophobic views. I have no tolerance for it, I don't care if that makes me stupid or whatever. It's unacceptable.

Just let other people live their lives.

What has religion got to do with registry office weddings????

You can't mention god in a registry office wedding - you can't have prayers or hymns or anything regarded as overtly religious.

Why shouldn't gay people marry in a registry office?

Marriage existed long before Christianity or Judaism, so really it's none of God's business, she should keep her nose out.

cos that worked so well in Russia and China Posie.