AIBU to think George Osbourne is a T**T

[Mum2Luke]

We are a family of 5 which a 21 yr old at University, 18 year old due to start uni next year and a 9 year old, DH earns the £43,000 and pays 40% tax on that as well as all the bills yet next year we are going to be one of the many families with no CB because he sees fit to think we earn a fortune yet a couple earning double get to keep the benefit!!!! We are also supporting our middle child in bus travel to and from college.

My CB goes straight to my son and daughter (as she is in full-time education) , I do not see a penny of it, it goes straight from my bank to theirs to buy shoes, clothes etc and is a lifeline. I do work but only 5 hours a week as a dinner lady in a school kitchen as my childminding has all but dried up with people being out of work in my area. I get pretty peed off with people who say 'oh you had kids, pay for them yourselves' which we have, all 3 of ours were planned and we saved up before even trying for them, no fancy prams that cost £300. Children are our future aren't they?

Does this Chancellor not undertsand that food is going through the roof as well as everything else which needs a lorry which uses diesel to transport it because the government puts tax after tax on fuel? Its is getting more and more expensive to pay for shopping and clothes which are essential in this country and its lovely climate.

Before people say 'Get a job near home' to my DH, believe me he tried, there is NOTHING in our area, he moved to his present job because the one which was local and he could cycle to was not paying anywhere near what he is qualified for, he might as well be on the dole but he is too proud, yes he's got a good job, he's worked bloody hard to get where he is, no company car though, he drives a KIA Rio 1.4. We don't go on foreign holidays every year, we don't smoke and we don't go out much together either.

Next year my son will be starting senior school in the september and the uniform alone will cost a fortune pus the football boots and trainers they have to have which also are not cheap by any means, the loss of CB is really stressing me out, I feel like writing to George f%&*$ing Osbourne and buying him a decent calculator because he obviously can't add up!!!!!!

YABU.

Osborne is no more of a twat than any other politician of any party.

They're all a bunch of self-serving cunts egomaniacs on a power trip.

Best not to get me started on the House of Lords...

Anyone who earns twice the national median income and feels entitled to benefits is a total cunt, twat or whatever particular other piece of invective is being directed at George Osborne here.

It's a shame that these cuts won't affect people on two incomes as much but the solution here is to hit them too.

It is disgusting to read someone earning twice the median income whinging that they will no longer be able to claim benefits, particularly after 30 years of bi-partisan attacks on welfare for the genuinely needy.

I'm also pretty unsympathetic to your complaint that you "will get very little help towards paying rent for halls" for your daughter to study "Art and Design" at "De Monfort University", which the Guardian league table puts at 54th for that subject (93rd overall).

Just a point - irrespective of the nitty-gritty of the OP's financial situation, someone earning £43K will only bring home around £31k after tax & NI. Two earners on £21k each will actually bring home almost £2k more due to having 2 tax allowances and not paying 40% on any of it.

£31k is not a huge amount to live on if you have more than 2 children. Even less if you happen to be a single parent paying for alot of childcare. When we consider that the proposed benefits cap is £26k we can see that the supposedly 'rich' family is on very little more than that.

And before anyone spouts that you shouldn't have more than 2 children, may I point out that these changes are retrospective in that they apply to children already born. Child allowance has been around since the end of WW2, families could reasonably expect it to continue when they conceived their children.

People have been complaining on MN regarding the £26K cap on benefits, saying £26K is far too much for people to get for their living expenses. But then people complain that £31K (or even £43K) is not enough to live on.

It's certainly interesting.....

Yes, exactly, Dragonwoman - very reasonably put.

It would be good to remind some people that all of us who are working pay taxes, so it's not unreasonable to feel "entitled" to get something back. In fact, there's an argument that says that child benefit makes moderately well-off people feel they have a stake in the welfare state. Once you take it away from them, then they become even more angry and disenchanted at what some of them see as "scrounging" that they become alienated from the very idea of a welfare state.

BTW according to experian median household income is between £20 and £29k.

Yes Triggles but the point is that the family on £31k take home is working for that money. Surely they can expect to get more income than a family not working without loosing their CB?

You say your daughter can't get into Manchester, but you mean The university of I take it? What about the met? I have 3 offers from them, what about Huddersfield?

I do hear you about cb and I'm not going to write my thoughts about it again. Yanbu about Osborne being a twat though. Him and that smug knob Cameron are a pair of cunts.

exactly triggles.
tanbu regarding Osborne. He is a twat and anyone who voted Tory and is moaning deserves what they get.
But OP, you are opn a decent salary. I have 2 at university who I cannot help and we have a salary half yours.
No one said life was fair. As for the 9 yo. When he goes to secondary buy a PAYG phone for £9. Job done.

OK, YANBU about the whole CB being cut when one parent earns over the limit but not when two earn just under and I do get how you can be earning 43k and feeling the pinch - just because others are worse off does not negate your situation. BUT everyone at uni writes a dissertation - I wrote one whilst holding down two jobs and then again when I did my masters while working 4 days a week. There may not be a job for him to get but that's not your objection to the 21yo working. If he is telling you he doesn't have enough time he is having you on. As for him graduating with debt well welcome to the world - I had £££ of debt but paid it off when I was earning enough to do so and am now free of it, whilst in a well paid job that I love because I invested in my education. Why should someone else have paid for that for me? Although I was pre-fees I would still have felt the same had I had to pay them. You do seem to be worrying about the wrong things re mobiles etc - having worked in secondary schools for 14 years it is a bit of a myth about bullying over these things - he won't be the only one without a phone, he certainly does not need it. I agree re food prices and fuel and there is only so much you can cut but that IS how things are at the moment. The recession will end eventually and your children will get jobs.

Actually that's NOT the point. The point is that people say £26K is too much, but then complain that it's too difficult to live on £31K or 43K. Regardless of how that money is obtained, regardless of CB.

How can £43K be too little when £26K is too much?

Well as I said its £31k take home. It's probably not too difficult to live on it in most places actually - unless you have 6 or more DCs. But it isn't a life of luxury. And if you could give up work altogether for only a £5k drop no-one could blame you for feeling a bit miffed. Especially as alot of £43k jobs are quite stressful with long hours.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100142080/cameron-and-osborne-are-giving-public-schoolboys-a-bad-name/

Actually to get £43k take home you would need to earn £63k gross. Not many people earn that.

Sorry typo. I meant £65k gross to get to take home £43k.

YANBU. Whatever anyone thinks about your household income being above the household average (that is a separate debate imo) what is particularly unreasonable and illogical is that a household with two parents earning just below the cut-off point - ie twice your household income - will keep their child benefit. Can anyone explain that? It is just another poorly thought out cut. (While we are on the subject can anyone explain why Conservatives think it is ok if housing benefit cuts mean families having to move out of their homes in the capital, but when a mansion tax is mooted, which might mean property rich homeowners without the income to match having to up sticks and downsize they start getting their knickers in a twist?)

Excellent link CFSKate - I think it says it all when even the Daily Telegraph can't find a good word to say about Dave and Gideon.

LillianGish: "what is particularly unreasonable and illogical is that a household with two parents earning just below the cut-off point - ie twice your household income - will keep their child benefit. Can anyone explain that?"

It's pragmatic. It's really simple to know what one person is earning and to cut the benefit accordingly. Knowing what the household income is is more complicated, and involves people filling in forms and then someone analysing those forms. It works out being quite costly, and also people get pissed off because they don't like filling in forms. So Osborne thought he was coming up with a nice simple solution, not realising the degree to which he was pissing people off.

Sorry for using the phrase "pissing off" twice in one post. I should have added, as well, that Osborne seems to have been surprised by the reaction, and I think that is because he genuinely doesn't understand what it feels like to bring up a family on a single income of, say, £45k a year.

Irrespective of the CB specific situation, I am a great believer in universal benefits. They are cheap to administer, do not discourage anyone from working and provide an easily accessible lifeline in hard times. They ensure that even the wealthy have a stake in social welfare and can be claimed without shame.

I have often pondered whether it would be cheaper to abolish all other benefits and just hand everyone £100 or so a week which they are free to top up by working etc. I am sure there are massive holes in this plan - don't bother to point them out, I am just musing! :)

I'm not sure the CB cut is pragmatic - we have independent taxation?

exactly. Whilst it will never be perfect, you cannot link members of a household for tax reasons. What if a grandparent or aunt lives with the family and earns over the threshold? Surely whichever parent claims the CB, their salary has to be the one taken into account. Anything else is simply too complex to administer. And YES of course it means that families with one parent on a large salary and one with none as a SAHM by choice will still get it but currently all pensioners get a state pension regardless of wealth / income (which are different things by the way). Is it not better for some people to get it who dont need it than for people who DO need it not to get it? (IFYSWIM)

I'm no Osbourne fan and I'll never vote Tory. I think that a couple on £80k still being able to claim is unfair. BUT:

• Given the age of your children, you must currently spend a lot of your time doing nothing/nothing that will contribute to household income. You should be looking for work and/or training/retraining it increase your chances of getting it. The couple earning joint £80k are effectively being rewarded for 2 incomes, like it or not (I don't). You could be in their position (financially, not wrt benefits) if you choose to get more work/a different job.

• I really don't think it's the State's responsibility to ensure an 11 year old child can keep up with the latest fashions regarding mobile phones and trainers - I'd rather my taxes were spent on something more fundamental - the NHS for example.

• I'm aghast at the number of parents who feel it's their responsibility to fund their child through university. You should be seeing your household income rise in the next year as another child leaves the nest and becomes responsible for themselves. I had minimal help from parents, borrowed heavily (c.£22k by the time I started work in 1999) but did a course and got a job which meant that by the time I was 30 I earned enough to have paid it back and some. It's possible. I also think that the cost of degree courses may focus the mind as to what is applied for and where. If you choose to support your child through their choice of course and location, fine but again, as a tax payer, it's not at the top of my list of things I want to pay for in a country on the verge of going bust. I'd love all forms of education to be free for all but we just can't afford it.

• I refuse to believe that your son in Leicester could not find a job at all. The University itself is a huge employer, he may now be far too late to have applied (ditto for other PT jobs done by students) but I have to ask WHY he didn't get one sooner if times are so tough?

So, in answer to your initial question YANBU but YABU to think the state should be picking up the slack when there is far more that you and your family could be doing to increase your household income if things are so difficult for you.

I have already said my eldest is in university, in his last year, working very hard to finish his dissertation, dd went to stay with him last week when she went for her interview and she told me he was working into the early hours with it.

My son is 10 actually, all his friends have mobiles as they do after school activities and he is the only one without one as I have told him he has to wait till we can afford one, I know he is getting stick but he says he understands, how do you think he feels?

I am barely working, not out of choice, its because we have no family nearby to help and we get no help with childcare either, what am I supposed to pay a childminder with, would it be worth working when my wage pays for childcare? Of course not. I am a Registered Childminder but there are so many in our area and not enough parents wanting our services, preferring to use Private nurseries instead, I am advertising everywhere I can but I have had not one single call and I have cm friends who are in the same boat, there is just not enough work in our area of Greater Manchester.

Am getting rather peed off at all your attitudes, we pay our way and more in this country and get naff all back yet people who do nothing and contribute nothing get help with this, that and the other out of our money which could help our family. When the EMA came out, we didn't get that for dd, we got the CB and Tax credits until April last year, now we've got one benefit which I think we, as hard working parents trying to provide for our family should be entitled to.

If this government did not squander the money on people who claim for non-existent kids and ones who don't even live in the country as well as giving it away we wouldn't be in this mess.

Gideon is, for example, a twat. The proposed ChB reforms are fundamentally unfair and ideologically-driven.

However - I'm amazed that so many people confuse a university education with basic needs. I was pulled out of sixth form college by my parents to work in a shoe shop when my tutor rang them to discuss Oxbridge entrance examinations

Dragonwoman, Xenia has often spoken about this idea. I think it is called a Citizen's Wage. Very different from IDS' "Universal Credit".