in in thinking that being the national average isn't something that one should aim for?

[Pusheed]

In another thread the OP asked whether DC needed tutoring. Various MNetters posted that the DC was sligtly ahead of the national average for that age group and that the OP shouldn't be worrying.

I want my DCs to go to a good university and from there, to get a good job. That isn't going to happen if they aim to be at the national average.

If you are being operated upon would you be happy with your surgeon being 'average'? If you were a soldier going into battle woul you want your leader to be 'average'? etc etc etc.

There is nothing wrong with being 'average'. We all can't be brain surgeons or nuclear physicists but at the same time why do we have to settle for being average?

Because in each of your scenarios of the soldiers/surgeons/students will be very poor, others very good and the vast majority will be lumped in the middle. Most of us are mediocre at most things.

Of course people might 'want' their children to be academically brilliant, but wanting something and it being realistic are two very different things.

Having seen the consequences of pushy parents trying to drive their children to academic levels they aren't capable of, I would rather have happy and fulfilled offspring in average jibs (whatever that means) rather than desperately unhappy 'high achievers' with stomach ulcers and a lingering sense of resentment of me.

"I would rather have happy and fulfilled offspring in average jibs (whatever that means) rather than desperately unhappy 'high achievers' with stomach ulcers and a lingering sense of resentment of me."

I'm not a high achiever but some of my friends/relations are. No stomach ulcers or resentment towards mom and dad :)

"Of course people might 'want' their children to be academically brilliant, but wanting something and it being realistic are two very different things2

DS was probably about 5th in her state primary class. I had parents of kids that were smarter then DD say the same thing about their respective DCs. Luckily my 'wanting' my children to be academically brilliant bore fruit :)

There is nothing wrong with encouraging children to reach their potential, not at all. But when parents are misguided enough to push them beyond what they are capable of, then it becomes a problem.

For example, when I played football as a kid, I could have been pushed, cajoled, harried from morning to night to be a better footballer as a kid, but it wouldn't have made a scrap of difference, only given me hopeless self esteem issues and my parents burst blood vessels. I lacked the co-ordination, athleticism, natural skill and speed to be anything other than a poor to average player in a kids team.

Accepting the limitations along with the aptitudes of your children, is tough but important. The truth is that by very statistical definition, most kids will be 'average' academically (or thereabouts) likewise the surgeon who operated on you, or the pilot of the last plane you flew on.

There is nothing wrong with being 'average'. We all can't be brain surgeons or nuclear physicists but at the same time why do we have to settle for being average?

But there are average brain surgeons and average nuclear physicists. I'd rather an average surgeon opoerated on me than the most brilliant physicist.

I have been teaching a long time and have met some amazing children who have excelled themselves and gone on to great things.
But I agree with ComposHat, some of the unhappiest and most neurotic children I have ever taught have had parents living vicariously through them and who have been pushed to their limits and beyond by the needs of their relatives to have those dreams realised.
You should aim high, but some parents really don't have the best interests of their child at heart, they are blinkered and poor listeners. I've known breakdowns and suicides, as well as those who have rejected the dream and the family has fractured as a result.
You sound rather smug and somewhat naive OP.

I'm not a high achiever but some of my friends/relations are. No stomach ulcers or resentment towards mom and dad

That's great. Sadly, I know far too many people who now have mental health problems which they associate with being pushed too hard by their parents. They did indeed become high achievers, but that didn't necessarily make them very happy.

Unfortunately, this was a common phenomenon at my university. :(

How old are your children OP?
A levels tend to be the first real hurdle, along with the ability to love and study a subject independently without parental input. No point if you are not self-motivated, otherwise it really is just a case of how hard those behind you are pushing.

It's possible to by highly successful and not stressed. Stress for me would involve scrambling for money at the end of each month, worrying if I'd be able to put food on the table. If it came to it, I'd rather be stressed and solvent than chilled and poor.

I would expect the average standard of a surgeon or battle leader to be very good, so no I wouldn't mind if they were average in their field. Clearly no academically average child is going to become a surgeon.

There is nothing wrong with wanting your child to be above average and there is nothing wrong with trying to help your child fulfil it's potential. The problems arise if parents don't recognise that the child's potential is average and/or place unnecessary pressure on child to achieve beyond this.

Btw, 5th at primary school=academic brilliance? Am hoping that was a joke because it made me laugh.

Am I misunderstanding what average means in terms of academics? I thought average would be a good thing? Doesn't it mean they are achieving what they should at their level?

Therefore an average surgeon is perfectly competant at their job?

I would be happiest person on earth if my DD achieved the 'average' ..not everyone is born with the ability to excel..so YABU

My brother was the only boy in a sea of girls, and had tremendous pressure put on him to be something he wasn't actually capable of. I'm sure this was one factor in his descent into alcoholism. My sisters and I received bog-standard encouraging noises but no more and as a result are all stable and happy with our adult lives.

I think kids should be encouraged to try their hardest and be rewarded on the basis of effort. If they try their best then they should reach their potential whether that's straight A's or a basic standard of literacy and numeracy. I think it's very damaging to encourage a child to aim to be a brain surgeon when they just don't have the IQ.

It's not the national average - it's the expected level.

It hasn't been the 'average' level since David Blunkett was Education Secretary.

I think one of the most important, and difficult, jobs of parenting is knowing whether you have the kind of child who will thrive on being pushed to excell or not. Being born by a certain set of parents in a certain family does not automatically equate to a certain type of brain.

My eldest brother was made quite unhappy by my parents' expectations until they realised that he was not them and never would be. Otoh my younger brother and myself were very like their dreams and benefited from having those expectations. My eldest brother only really began to feel good about himself when he went down a totally unexpected, non-academic path and found something he could really do. He now earns a comfortable salary doing a responsible job that he knows he is good at.

"I want my DCs to go to a good university and from there, to get a good job. That isn't going to happen if they aim to be at the national average."

You are not allowing for the fact that it is what your dcs want that matters.

As a parent you have only got control for so long and if you try to push your luck beyond that, you can damage your relationship for a long time.

My FIL was very upset when dh decided to become an archaeologist (digging, not academic) and you can see his pov: digging in the mud is hardly the route to wealth and security. But dh has been very happy, he has been lucky enough to have relative job security and at the end of the day it was his life and he was not going to back down. Sadly, it took years for both of them to get over harsh things that had been said on either side.

I would also like to add, as a university teacher, that there is nothing more disheartening than trying to get a spark of independent thinking out of a student who has no passion of their own for the subject but is only there because mummy and daddy wanted them to have a degree at a good university. The only sparks you tend to get from that kind of student is the anger when they realise they've got a Third.

Otoh students who are there because they wanted to be there, students who make up their own minds, students who do not let other people be in charge of their future - those students can go far.

I try to ensure that my children are constantly exposed to good learning experience, I try to show them that learning is valued and considered fun by the adults around them. I encourage them to work hard at school because doing a job (any job) well is a virtue in its own right. When required I do my best to advise them on study and career opportunities. But I do not for a moment imagine that it will be my job to tell them what to do with their lives.

It is also interesting how instantly academic achievement is equated with loads of dosh and consequent stress.

(For example CaoNiMa: "
It's possible to by highly successful and not stressed. Stress for me would involve scrambling for money at the end of each month, worrying if I'd be able to put food on the table. If it came to it, I'd rather be stressed and solvent than chilled and poor.")

My case - not outstanding but certainly at the top end academically (at the top end of a highly academic school, although not quite top of the pile!). Got a good degree and went on to get an MA through part-time study in a field completely different to my BSc.

Still broke at the end of each month - I opted to work for a charity which has had financial problems ever since I've been there (which means basic salary is a given but bonuses, for example, don't often happen). But I think the work they do is so valuable and important I couldn't work in any other field.

I wasn't pushed academically, I was encouraged. Key difference. I did well. And I've used it in a way that I think gives something back to the world. I love going to work and always have. But I still sometimes get to the supermarket at the end of the month without enough money to get everything I need and we have to muddle along until next pay day (I am married - I met my DH because he worked in the same field so that's no use! I'm now PT with unpredictable working hours). However, we're not even close to being among the worst off in the world, or even in the UK, so we're lucky.

I think what i am trying to say is don't make the assumption that pushing your children to achieve academically will result in them living in style and holidaying abroad six times a year! They might get all the bits of paper you want, and then go off and live close to the breadline doing something they value more than money (and getting stressed anyway because it matters to them!).

Half of the population are below average, so being above average puts you at least in the top 50%. Everyone likes to think they are above average, but 50% will ALWAYS be below average, regardless of standards, such is the nature of averages.

At Ks2, 80% achieve it.

It isn't the average.

[You] want your children to go to a 'good' university and from there to go on to a good career, OP?

What about what [they] want?
What if one of your children turns out to be a kind, empathetic, hard working man/ woman who wants to do something different? How sad that in your eyes they won't have achieved what you think they should.

Like others have said, I deplore the way some parents map out their children's lives and have a fixed idea of what they 'should' do as adults. I'm not being sexist, but it does seem to be mainly mothers who havent achieved as much as they wanted to in their own life, and then subsequently live through their children.

I want my children to aspire to do their best, and to aspire to be compassionate, open minded adults who will have happy relationships. Whether they choose to go to a 'top' university, or university at all, is up to them. I certainly wont be filling in their UCAS forms for them as I know some parents do. It's THEIR life.

Based on just the title YANBU

The average of something is not necessarily desirable.

This applies to weight as well (if not more).

Lots of very good points about aiming for the best that you as an individual can achieve, which may be above or below average depending on various factors.

Not much YABU/YANBU going on though, which makes me wonder how AIBU-ish this is...

Trills- have you read the op? It's not so much the comment about 'aiming for the national average' people disagree with. I have never heard anyone say they aspire to the national average!
It's the claptrap op is spouting about what exactly she wants her children to do with their adult lives which is worrying

I agree with the OP in the sense that, for example, a grade C at GCSE is not aspirational for many students, and when it is, it's detrimental to motivation. That's why secondary schools largely use Fischer Family Trust target levels (and because this is how value added is measured).

That in itself is damaging when it's used as a stick to beat teachers with, but makes sense as a goal to aim for.

I did point out that my first response was just to the title and the second was after reading the whole thread.