To think Uni students are a right moaning pita compared to when I went

[ohtobemoanproof]

Im a lecturer.

When I went to University-we went to the lectures, took notes from the board or overheads, went home, studied, did the exams etc, got our marks whenever they were ready and went away. No bothering the lecturers ( ever), no having their emails and demanding appointments, no arguing the toss over coursework marks, no moaning and complaining.

Now, I feel almost "bullied" by some of the students (not high fee payers, in fact some are on a bursary). They constantly moan (about everything, not just me in case anyone suggests its my module leadership in question), are always at the door, send email critiques about the quality of highly appraised visiting expert speakers, threaten to sue if coursework is returned a day later than you suggest it will be back, blame the lecturer if they get lower marks than expected, demand formal public apologies if they dont receive central messages about "one off" timetable changes, bitch if lecture notes aren't on module spaces a week before the lecture is held...it goes on. Bloody nightmare.

Aibu to think this is a new breed and we just weren't like that "in my day".

sniffs and has some more gin

We weren't like that - do you think the change is partly to do with fees? Makes students feel they are customers paying for a service, which wasn't how we thought of university 20 years ago!

You're so not unreasonable!

Trying not to out myself, but DH is an honory lecturer(medic) and the number of students training to be doctors that can't be arsed to turn up to lectures, get others to sign in for them , do not want to put any effort into learning and then COMPLAIN they they haven't had enough tuition and support boggles my mind!

He says that it seems that since they started paying fees, they view themselves more as consumers, so are buying their degree and your time so are so full of their self entitlement that they really can't perceive the detriment they are doing to themselves or fellow students

And you're right-never happened in my day, and we needed a 98% attendance rate too

Oh, I am a lecturer and I was moaning about this very subject this week. I simply never bothered my lecturers at college, the idea of emailing them with trivial questions or requests (like I missed the lecture can you give it again?!) would have been out of the question. They get more time, more materials, more energy, and I don't think they are a better students as a result.

Some students are ace and really stimulating to teach. Unfortunately, I hate to say it, but I work at a uni with a lot of privately educated students who perhaps have high grades but not the drive to do very very well all by themselves, and are used to a large amount of structure and support. Of course, there are a few high-fliers but the bulk are not used to engaging their brain very deeply in return for achievement. This has made me think twice about what I would be getting myself if I paid for an education for my children.

The best ones are the ones who email on the weekend and demand an immediate response.

Ah the consumer culture! Tell 'em to bugger off or you'll fail them. They are not buying their educate and they still need to shut up and get their work done.

Have no witnesses.

And I never got a grant and had to pay postgrad fees, and all subsequent course fees, and was always slightly in awe of my lecturers and scared of the head of course.

did they have emails in your day?

It's partly to do with fees and them feeling like customers.

It's partly the universities' fault as they did start to abuse students by piling them into huge lecture theatres and giving them very little individual attention to make money, and the students fought back (through customer satisfaction which is a massive part of how universities are ranked).

The mantra is 'don't upset the students' now, because of the NSS student satisfaction survey. So, we don't always make them do horrid things like teaching statistics, or doing long essays, because it upsets them and they rank us lower. This has shifted the power balance and made students start thinking up new demands (e.g. marking returned sooner and sooner without them realising this means the quality of feedback goes down).

But, I do like the majority of the students, I just wish some of them had more of a thirst for learning and weren't just going through the motions. I'm not!

As a student I think it works both ways: my parents are very 'old school' (although neither went to uni) so at first I was very apprehensive about emailing/asking lecturers for advice. However the university was always very keen to point out that we should keep in touch, meet regularly with tutors (I saw mine once in three years as this was thought A Bad Thing) and fill out feedback forms. I have feedback forms (for my MSc) coming out of my ears!

There are also the student satisfaction surveys, league tables etc. which put a lot of pressure on the marketing departments to look good. They'll only do this by getting good feedback and working on the things students don't like.

There's also an element attached to the recession: lecturers have to publish more (so have less time) but I, and all my friends, are absolutely petrified about unemployment. It's so competitive that you need the edge that comes through high marks - if that means I have to make a pest of myself by visiting my lecturers to find out exactly what they want then I'll do it because once I leave uni I'll be competing with loads of other highly qualified graduates on top of recently redundant experts with bags of experience that I don't have.

When I started university we paid the £1.5K or whatever it was for fees. I was part way through my degree when the first load of "top up fees" came in and they started paying £3k. For various reasons (changing degree, having ds...) I knew the college secretary and the admin people in my department pretty well. They all said how things changed as soon as students started paying more. They suddenly had a lot more expectations and the poor staff found themselves dealing with disgruntled parents and students being very rude to them (because they were "just" admin I suppose). It was horrible to hear because they were all, without exception, absolute legends who were always happy to pull out all the stops and help.

I'm doing my bachelors degree right now, dh a lecturer.

Yes some people whine too much about unjustified things eg "the lecturer was 5 minutes late", "she didn't tell us exactly what was on the exam." Okay so I will admit that is rubbish.

BUT there is a fair share of things I can absolutely understand the amount of complaining about. especially for the outrageous fees that people are paying. The organisation and communication is a shambles and includes such highlights as dropping a sudden request for a £300 deposit with the deadline being on the same day.

I think people must forget what it is like because I don't believe for a second that people who went in years past never moaned about anything. I know from experience that the generation isn't made up of angels.

*"as this was thought" = and this was thought

Aribura of course students always moaned - but in the past it was to each other, over a pint in the student bar.

I also agree with Aribura. I won't give specifics as it's still contentious and rattling on but our department (not all of them and actually not the admin ladies, who are fab) made a massive cock-up and the Head of Dept ended up getting involved and was absolutely furious. After you have one big incident that affects your chances of graduating with high marks you tend to have a lower threshold for other mistakes.

Highlight of my last exams session was an invigilator telling us "You're all doing different exams and there are a lot of you, so I don't know when any of you are finishing. You decide when you're finishing and if there's any doubt, you'll get the benefit." Which was exactly what I wanted to hear at the start of a two hour exam

Aribura, there was a different power relation then, lecturers and professors were seen as experts who you were lucky to get close to and hear speak, but you didn't bother them with trivial issues such as not quite understanding the essay question or that you couldn't find a certain book in the library. There was much more sharing between students, so if you missed a lecture, I would ask my fellow students for their notes and copy them up, not bother the lecturer.

It's the lack of independence that worries me, though. If a student can't immediately find the book they want, or the reading isn't immediately in the place online they think it is, they email the tutor. They lack the skills to think laterally, go to the library, look in other online sites. They expect an 'on a plate' package in return for their fees but actually this over-facilitation means they are not learning independent study or indeed critical thinking, the two things you like to think students are coming out with when leaving university.

I think the make up of the students now is very different to when I went. There were very few mature aged students so most of us were straight from school and just spent all day on campus. Now there are timetable demands, complaints about gaps in the day, lectures being on certain days etc etc. We just got the timetable and accepted it.

mumsyblouse you have it spot on when you mention the different power relationship.
I have had one come to me to complain about there not being enough water coolers on campus. I mean WTF? I am a bloody lecturer, this has nothing to do with me.

Mumsy - I totally agree, we asked other students. I remember being in a lecture where the lecturer did thsi enormous complicated equation on the board and spent an hour talking about it. Turned out afterwards talking to other students that it went over the head of virtually all of us. We just begged those who did understand it to explain it to us.

I remember the first day at Uni being told by the dean that they were not teachers, they were lecturers.
I guess that doesnt apply anymore.

But why do you think they shouldn't complain when you miss a marking deadline? Wouldn't you have something to say when they miss a deadline? If they are expecting the notes up a week in advance, why don't you put them up in time? It sounds like you're saying no-one should call you on your disorganisation because you are a lecturer and above reproach...

Disclaimer: I am extremely biased because my course director on my masters buggered off leaving me abroad, with nowhere to stay for 3 months and went 'off-grid' on sabbatical. I managed to sort everything myself and found a bloody night shelter to crash at until I got permanent accomodation and he then tried to reject my thesis on his return 3 months later because it wasn't close enough to the spec he was envisaging. I appealed and got my degree but with considerable stress...
He never even turned up to the appeal.

TBH admin at my Russel Group was a massive shambles. I never complained (my mother is a lecturer who feels the same way as OP and I wouldn't dare).

probs included but were not limited too:

I had lecturers not turn up for lectures AT ALL
Major balls ups that took months (yes months) to sort out
Lecturers failing to produce references for students costing them jobs/places on other courses
Very very late info on things like timetables, exams, course work
late marks back (and I mean like 3-6 MONTHS late)
Little or no tutorial time

yes there are some student smaking silly entitled remakrs but are you relly suggesting unis are well oiled helpful machines?

Sorry but notes a week in advance is an unrealistic expectation.

I am not moaning about the students themselves really, I'm saying that we are doing the students a disservice in failing to prepare them for independent work, and that is as much our fault as theirs. The more we pander to their small demands (like water coolers, everything sent to them a week in advance in case they can't read it etc), the less this prepares them for real working life in which no-one is going to care what the new temp thinks about these things, or prepare stuff ahead of time for meetings. We are failing them, yet they are more 'satisfied' than ever. It's all wrong.