To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

I also think abortion should be available on demand with no time limits - or at least, until a baby can survive independently of the mother.

The reason for the abortion is irrelevat imo, and just muddies the issue.

One foetus is the same as any other foetus - if you argue that it is ok to abort a foetus conceived as a result of rape then you have no argument to say it isn't ok where there was no rape. The perceived worthiness/morality of the mother has no bearing on the life of the foetus. A foetus with a disability has just as much right to life as a non-disabled foetus.

I don't understand people who are anti-abortion except where they think the mother is blameless. Basically the babies of innocent 15 year old rape victims are worthless to them, but the babies of selfish irresponsible types have a right to life It's more like they think abortion laws should be about policing women than about the right to life.

ReindeerBollocks and Mrsd
you sum it up well, I am pro choice but very anti disability discrimination. which Is why I think there should be one rule for all.

Doesnt she make that choice when she has sex?

So now, we shouldn't have sex unless we want to be pregnant? Now we are incubators & baby making machines?

Why a joyless life where you advocate that just because woman have sex, they should be made to carry an unwanted baby that was the result of that sex. Way to control & punish a woman for enjoying sex.

As an aside, contraception does fail. In my case, the mini pill & a condom.

ReindeerBollocks

Thank you! Things are great now. And I still look back & know that I couldn't have coped! I know what I did was best & don't regret a second of it.

Interesting thoughts here on disabled babies and makes me question more why it is illegal to abort for gender but not things such as disability.

chandellina because disability the allowed discrimination

Not saying either should necessarily be illegal, mind, just trying to work out the lines drawn.

So not sure being wanted or unwanted matters that much to the child

Do you want to know how much being unwanted means to me, op? Do you want to know how it affected me growing up as the 3rd child, being treated very differently to her siblings? Do you want to know how it affects ALL of my relationships? How even now, at 38 & as the mother of 2 wonderful children, as a wife, and as a friend, I still feel unloved. I still feel that because my mother didn't want me, nobody does. How I question motives in every relationship I have. How I really don't believe they love me or care for me?

My emotional insecurity affects my whole life.

So before you go spouting shit about how it doesn't matter to the child, perhaps ask one first, hey?

No wonder governments feel they can intervene on abortion rights when women can't even agree between themselves

Late abortions are rare. They cannot be used to justify an anti-abortion stance unless you have another agenda. They in no way whatsoever reflect the vast majority of abortions.

But coming back to abortion and the stance taken by some pro-lifer's that state a woman should take a pregnancy to term because she was an adult who made a conscious decision to have sex. Bu that it's different for women who have been raped, etc. Well that's where it gets complicated isn't it.

What is consensual sex, and how much power do women really have over it?

1 in 9 women will be raped in their lifetime. This figure generally involves forced sex rather than coerced sex, but the legal definition of rape includes coercion. Drunk sex is rape (drunkeness legally precludes the ability to be consenting). If you deny abortion to a woman who conceived after a night of drunken sex, then you should also prosecute the father for rape. Anything else is applying different rules based purely on gender and the fact that women are held to a higher moral code than men.

Among young people, the advent of depo provera injections and implanon implants etc means that the use of condoms etc is actually diminishing (hence the rise in STIs). There are many studies out there to show that young men are pressurising girls into having sex without condoms and using the fact that they can access hormonal contraceptives as an excuse for it. Not only does this endanger female sexual health, but it also sets the bar that contraception is the responsibility of women. That is misogynistic.

We live in a culture where sex is glamourised and referenced in popular culture aimed at children as young as 9 (the average listening age for acts like Rihanna is 12, with a typical age range being 9-18). That has far more effect on girls than it does for boys, since boys are aware that they risk fewer consequences - they can't get pregnant, they are unlikely to be made to pay for child support if they do get a girl pregnant, and they are 2x less likely to contract a STI. Are lots of young girls being raped, even though they may be over the age of consent and said yes? I'd say yes. Coercion and pressure = rape. Not being educated enough/having enough self esteem and confidence to be aware that you can and should say no doesn't make it any less rape in my view.

If you then remove abortion, you contribute to a culture in which women are ultimately vessels for male pleasure and convenience. I have no respect for any pro-life campaigner who doesn't back up their pro-life campaigning with equally vigorous campaigns for female equality, a concerted effort to abolish rape myths, and the enforcement of child support.

If a woman chooses not to use it she forfeits her right to choice IMO

So, now forcing a woman to have a baby that is the result of rape. You are a charmer, aren't you!

Oh & contraception isn't free the world over. My pill costs me $33 a pack. (22 pounds). Which is why I am off to be sterilized soon!

How is it hatred of women? That's ridiculous, especially when you consider that I am actually a woman?

Doesn't make sense, does it? But your posts don't make it any less so!.

To be fair this conversation was about the UK not abroad wasn't it?

Sorry, but I feel that IUseTooMuchKitchenRoll is either trolling....or um trolling! I don't believe anyone can carry that much pure hatred for "her" own sex!

Well, actually I do. But it is leaving a rather horrible taste in my mouth. I am dumbfounded by her responses. And I am talking about her in the 3rd person, because I don't wanna talk to someone who regards females as so low down on the food chain!

verityverbiage

Your point being that I can't contribute because I no longer live in the UK?

KitchenRoll has been known to have 'interesting' views on other threads to be honest.

differentnameforthis

Not at all but contraception IS free here so paying for it abroad has nothing to do with access to contraception here.

I don't think pro-lifers who find abortion on the grounds of disability acceptable mean any disability - IME it's usually only in cases where the child will die in utero or shortly after birth and will be in pain. I think it comes more from a euthanasia type position.

Sigh...more 'woman hating' accusations...

Sigh... more denial with no attempt to disprove. Have a pro-life view? Fine. Seek to impose it on another and you are campaigning. Campaign to restrict female reproductive rights without campaigning for other women's rights to balance it and you ARE guilty of women-hating even if unintentional.

It is wrong to end life just because of a year of discomfort for someone

How do you work out that it is limited to a year? In my case, it is 38yrs. I am still in discomfort now about how I was treated, because I wasn't wanted.

You want the mother to go through "a year of discomfort", so tell me, why do you think that the actual person who is born from that doesn't suffer?

Do any of you pro lifers think about the consequences of being born for the unwanted baby? Or don't their feeling matter once they are born?

These type of debates always get heated.

It's pointless making a point even.

bumbleymummy

Someone who thinks rape victims have to carry a baby to term because she doesn't take the MAP is hating of women.

The same person thinks a 12yr old rape victim should have the baby is she doesn't have the where-with-all to seek out the map.

I'd say that that person can't really think much of women!

they are adult women who consented to taking a risk fully knowing the consequences that could well occur

And that means that should be made to bare any baby they ever conceive?