To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

Or are the unborn not worthy of any compassion?

Are women who don't want to be pregnant not worthy of this compassion then?

if all women opted out of having children

We are not advocating that all women opt out of having children & as this is your thread, you will know that this isn't what the thread is about.

We are advocating that all women be allowed to opt out of a pregnancy they do not want to continue .

HUGE difference. Just saying.

Surely ending a life would leave a bigger mark on a soul than allowing someone else to care for your child would

well in my case, not being wanted & being raised by the woman who tried to DIY abort me left a bigger mark on my soul than my termination ever could.

I think adoption in some cases might actually be the best choice for some women in the case of an unwanted pregnancy

OK, so when I found my self unexpectedly pregnant (my 3rd pregnancy) I was distraught. I didn't want anymore. For various reasons, but mainly because I know how it feels to be unwanted/unloved & to live your life thinking you are inadequate. I didn't have faith in myself to continue the pregnancy & 'hope' I would love it. I couldn't guarantee that! There were also medical issues that surround my pregnancies that I didn't want to risk/live through again.

If I was told that I wasn't allowed a termination, I think I would have done something really regrettable. As it was, in the 5 weeks it took me to get my termination, I felt very depressed. I was horrible to live with, I went through the motions of raising my 5mth old & 5yr old. Each night I would cry because I wanted it out of me. I wanted not to be pregnant anymore.

I thought about crashing my car to induce a miscarriage. The only reason I didn't, was that my dc were always in the car with me. And I couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't leave them motherless.

To have to have that baby would have ended my life as I know it. Even if it were to have it adopted. I, maybe even wouldn't be here. And I am not kidding about that! You have NO idea what was going on in my head but my life was black. And, I will describe it as the lowest point of my life. I would never have recovered. My family would have suffered. I would not be who I am today. My dc would not have the mother they have today.

But that would be alright, wouldn't it...because my "baby" would be another statistic in care.

How would I ever explain to the child (if in years to come it came looking for me) that I didn't love it enough to keep it. How do you visit that much rejection upon a child? And let's not forget that I have felt that rejection. I felt it everyday for 20years! I still feel it now.

Women who give up a child are doing doing anything more honourable than a woman who terminates her pregnancy. Both women know their limitations. Both women know that to have a child would have a severe impact on her life. They just choose different paths.

Women who give up a child are not doing anything more honourable

But I'm not happy about unborn babies dying either

So are you offering to raise all the unwanted babies? Should they all be housed with you?

No? Thought not. You don't want terminations to happen, but you don't want to be part of the solution, either.

If you believe life begins at conception what do you do if a woman has an ectopic pregnancy? There is no chance of a live birth, without an operation then the mother may well die. Do you allow her to have that operation?

Rape - why is it OK to have an abortion after rape but not in other circumstances? How would this work, it takes about 18 months to get to trial - if the rapist is caught. That's a bit too long to wait, if you just accept a woman's word for it then you end up with Roe vs Wade.

Define 'rape' - until the 1990s a man could not rape his wife, they could be seperated for 2 years, and it be the day before the decree nici but a man had thee right to have sex with his wife.

If you force a woman to carry a baby are you going to let her have medical treatment that may damage the unborn child, ie some chemo therapy drugs can also be used for chemical abortion, so if you are unintentionally pregnant and have cancer should you be allowed cancer treatment? Is the woman going to be monitored to stop her drinking alcohol, make sure she eats properly, doesn't take an overdose?

I think it should be legal, on demand, at any time in the pregnancy, without counselling (unless requested).

I think the requirement to return to a clinic for the second part of a chemical abortion should be removed - there is no medical reason for it.

I think it is sickenining to talk of abortion up to term that is murder whether for a disability o for any reason at all. If you want to kill a new born do it yourself and face the consequences.

"You are determined to remain adamant that you would not have benefited from counselling, but you don't speak for every woman that has ever had an abortion. Yours is not the only experience."

I'm not "determined" to remain anything, and I'm not claiming to speak for anyone.

I'm telling you that I would not have benefitted from forced counselling.

What are the rules about counselling people who are forced to be there?

What possible good can it do?

You say that counsellors are not allowed to offer advice, but you want them to tell women about the dubious risks that you perceive to them. Telling women that they will probably have a lifetime of guilt and infertility if they have an abortion is hardly unbiased, is it?

Or will counsellors be allowed to say "this is a simple procedure you will barely ever think about for the rest of your life. It will end your pregnancy and let you carry on with your life as though it never happened."?

Because that's how it is for lots of women.

Why do they need to hear that people like you think they should be racked with guilt forever more?

Women who feel they would benefit from counselling already gave that option.

People who want to enforce it have an agenda that is as far from caring about the welfare of the women concerned as can be.

Differentnameforthis- you post on these threads quite often and it's very sad that you had the childhood that you did but I'm not really sure what your argument is. Would you rather that you had been aborted and that you didn't exist and your own children don't exist? Or would you prefer to have had a different/better life with someone else?

As far as dealing with unwanted pregnancies goes, personally, I think it would make more sense to have better and more effective birth control and harsher punishment for rapists that may actually go some way to making them thinking bloody twice before attacking a woman. (castration anyone?) Basically making more efforts to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place rather than having this attitude of just accepting that they are going to happen. Why should there be unwanted pregnancies in this day and age?

I do think that providing abortions to 24 weeks for non medical reasons is a bit too late in the pregnancy - Norway manages with a much lower limit. Obviously, this would also mean that the process of obtaining an abortion would need to be speeded up so people aren't sitting on waiting lists for weeks.

Also, I do agree with earlier posters that abortion is effectively available on demand in this country even though that isn't technically the law (clearly doctors are prepared to lie/distort reasons to fit in with the current law if this gender selection thing is happening)? I think the law needs to be tightened up. The idea of abortion on demand in Norway to 12 weeks does bother me a bit and I would actually like to see more figures relating to it. With it being that easily available does it actually almost 'triviallise' (not the best word but I hope ykwim) abortion and move it closer to it being used a bit like the MAP?

Sashh - what about gender selection - do you think we have it wrong now to ban it as a reason?

Athinginyourlife- I don't think counsellers would be able to tell you any of those things because they aren't supposed to tell you how you would feel. I don't think explaining the procedure and allowing women to ask questions etc is that bad a thing - as someone mentioned earlier it's pretty standard for most operations.

Is counselling 'standard for most operations'? My sister's having an op on Monday and hasn't had counselling! Never heard of this personally, unless you count the brief chat the doctor gives explaining what's involved and what the risks are, if any.

Sorry Bumbley, I think I might have got hold of the wrong end of the stick in your previous post. Ignore me!

I am slightly confused.

When I had my termination (was many years ago) I had to speak to someone (a counsellor) to talk over my reasons and how I felt. this was on he nhs.

" I don't think explaining the procedure and allowing women to ask questions etc is that bad a thing - as someone mentioned earlier it's pretty standard for most operations."

It is not standard to be forced to undergo counselling before an operation, what rot.

Your doctor explains the procedure. And abortion should be no different.

chandellina - this thread's title indicates that is about abortion law. If you had indicated that you only wanted to talk about gender selection, maybe you should have put that up front. I certainly wouldn't have clicked on it.

I think it is pretty clear from the OP that she wanted the thread to be about gender selection actually. It was never going to do anything other than degenerate though. It is too emotive not to.

I thought i was pro-life, but this thread had made me realise that actually, as i have long suspected, i am not - this makes me very sad. I can't get my head around abortion being OK just because it doesn't fit win with a womans lifestyle. I have had two unplanned pregnancies, one when i was 18 and another when i was 35. The first one i can abolutely hand on heart say changed my life for the better, i was directionless, single, uneducated. My DD1 made me settle down, get an education and sort my life out. Then fast forward 15 years when Im educated, just finishing my PhD and about to embark on career - DD2 comes along, my relatioship with DP of 15 years changes forever and not really for the better if i'm honest. I had terrible PND that has left me suffering from extreme anxiety. My career?? LMAO I can't even get a job in tesco. Should I have had a termination for DD1 when i was a young single mother? After all i did go onto benefits and become a burden on the state for a while. Or should I have had an abortion with DD2 because she came along and changed my settled life? Well right now, im watching DD2 playing some weird make believe game and my heart is full of love, my DD1 is 21 and making a go of her first real job and my heart is full of pride. Neither of my DDs were planned and I had every excuse for a termination really - I thank God every day that i didnt do it. I didn't "want" either of my daughters, but my God, i adore them, they make me who i am and they are my reason for living. Sorry if this is emotive, but thats my story, thats how it is for me. If i had chose to abort them, i would have had to live with the "what ifs" and I know i couldnt have done that.

But im not pro-life because i have read other peoples stories and udnerstand why they chose the route they did. There is part of me that wishes that abortion just was not possible, but it is and It is not for me to judge under what circumstacnces it becomes acceptable.

I typed a long post but decided against it as I'm sad that it seems impossible to have an opinion that isn't with the general consensus without being accused of woman hating or labelled as pro choice/pro life.

For me the abortion limit should be reviewed as medical science evolves as foetus/ babies are surviving with increasingly lower gestational age.
For me abortion is a no, what anyone else does is for them to live with.

No, but having the procedure explained to you and having the opportunity to ask questions is otherwise how is it informed consent?

Both my children were unplanned

unPLANNED & unWANTED are TOTALLY different.

I would hate to live in a society where the only way to have an abortion would be in a back room with a coat hanger. I think its very possible to be pro life, yet insist on society having access to safe medical or surgical abortions available to women fairly easily.
gender selection is no different from selecting on the basis of a disabiltiy. just because most people dont view it the same way, doesnt mean it isnt.

Cupcake, I think you touched on an important point - how changes in medical science have reduced the age of viability and how abortion law has changed with that. I think a difficult part of that with regard to a definition of 'life' for the pro-choice argument is that it is changing so an argument that focuses on the age of viability being the definition of 'life' encounters difficulties when that age of viability changes or indeed is proved wrong when a baby is born younger than that age and survives. I don't think that 'life' can fall into a legal definition.

greylady, choices have to be made, and the decision about when life starts is that first breath a newborn takes. Before it, its a foetus, whatever gestational age it is, after that breath, its a person with all the appropriate human rights. You may not like that cut off, but its the most important physiological change in life, other than death and conception.

in a perfect world, no baby owuld be conceived that wasnt wanted, but we dont live in a perfect world,

fb, I don't think many people agree with selection based on disability either. I think people who have mentioned disability as grounds for abortion have been talking about disabilities that result in the baby dying in utero or only living for a short time after birth - so its seen more as euthanasia. I don't think many people agree with the idea of aborting for cleft palate/club foot etc...

i agree, they dont. Im just saying that the chioice is the same sort of classification. Downs screening was brought in at a time when it was considered that most people wouldnt want a child with downs, but the number of people on mumsnet who have told me that even if their baby was positive for downs has made me realise what a total waste of time that screening is.