To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

If everyone just accepted that abortion is killing a potential baby and made their choice on that basis only then there would be no problem. I agree with abortion when a child or mother would have an insufferable quality of life if the child was born. I agree with abortion if pregnancy has resulted from rape or incest. I agree with abortion when the mother is under 16. I do not agree with abortion later than 16 weeks (20 in exceptional cases).
I must say I have only read page one but want to say something tonight. Yes the law is complex but the basic principle isn't imho. Sorry.

Desperate - yes, I believe abortions should be available until term as is currently the way with children with disabilities. I'm not the only one who has expressed this view either.

Seven - I didn't mean that disabled = unhealthy. Sorry if it came across like that. My views are opposite to this, and that children with disabilities should not be classed as more socially acceptable to terminate. It should be more equal.

Counsellors are not allowed to give advice of any kind. It's one of the most basic rules AThing.

You are determined to remain adamant that you would not have benefited from counselling, but you don't speak for every woman that has ever had an abortion. Yours is not the only experience.

Gordys for me and mine it would always be wrong but if my 12 year old had been raped I'd rather she had a very early abortion-I suppose I'd choose the traumatised adolescent over the unborn baby but it would be hellish hard.

Im not sure what you are saying reindeer - the thought of aborting any child at term sickens me. However, if i child has a severe and life limiting disability that would suffer significantly if the pregnancy was allowed to complete, then there are, sadly, times when this is the kinder thing to do. It has nothing to do with social acceptability in my mind.

I shoudlnt have posted on this thread because im too much on the fence, idealistically im pro-life, but in the same breath, i recognise that termination is the right option for so many women too. Bowing out now, because im talking bollox anway, i apologise if i have upset anyone

People who abort because of a disability are not making a comment about other people who have a disability or a child with a disability. they are just making a choice that is best for their circumstances.

Disability can = incompatible with life or it can be a very good reason for an individual family to decide not to continue with a pregnancy.

of course they are making a comment.
tbh what people do is up to them, but imo the law should not discriminate, so if you can abort a disabled baby up to term, it should be the same for a non disabled baby.

I thought the 24 weeks point was due to that after that point the chances of the baby surviving outside the womb rose significantly (obviously still tenuous in rl experience of premature births)

absolutely agree with your last point sevenfold, everyone should be allowed to abort up to term.

But to me that's like saying that all those children with life limiting conditions are less worthy as people.

I think if it's ok to terminate a child with issues (and this category is not limited to those who have no quality of life btw) then it should be ok to end the life of a healthy foetus too.

Because if the mother wants an abortion for social reasons then she should be able to get one. I get annoyed that the most judgemental are those who claim to be pro life but aren't truly, because they have conditions on when it's socially acceptable to abort and when it's not. Thats not being pro life.

I am pro choice anyway. That's why I hold the belief that the mother comes first and should do until the baby is born. That's an unpopular view I'll agree and the law isn't currently like this anyway.

However as a mother of a child with a life limiting condition it annoys me that it would be ok to have aborted my DS (all tho years ago) but not my DD? It seems like there is less value attached to DS's life than DD's because of his condition.

although I'll admit that this probably doesnt make sense to anyone but me

Actually sevenfold said it better than I could.

i think there are definitely issues around society accepting abortion for medical reasons, when in many cases the disabled child might have quite a good quality of life.

there is really no stigma around aborting for Down's - I do think that is a comment on children not aborted for Down's, or those who weren't caught by screening.

who defines a Life limiting condition?
the doctor at the hospita, like the one that told me that dd had mild cp
(I wish) even if a child isn't going to live till old age , don't they deserve a chance?

It's such a complicated issue, I'm generally a big ole lefty, and I want to be totally pro-choice, but the whole late abortion thing throws me off.

I just think that after about 16 weeks you would need a really good reason for aborting, it's impossible to know at which point a foetus gains the ability to feel pain, or be sentient.

I totally get the whole thing of Women being able to choose, being in charge of their own bodies etc.

But late term abortions, I feel that if the foetus could survive outside the mothers body, then what rights does she have to end it's life. Surely they should have rights too.

I went to a playdate with my ds1 and the mother of the child told me all about her 23 week abortion because she hadn't found out until late. It was the oddest encounter of my life, why would you tell someone you have just met about this .

If I am honest I just don't agree with late abortions, even for disability, I just do not think it is right to insert a needle in the heart of beings that would otherwise live and inject something that will stop the heart of those beings.

Early abortions are different, it is not an actual formed feotus, I have even heard of people aborting 38 week foetuses because they have a hare lip or some other small problem, that is just straight out wrong.

Seven - I believe doctors who approve late term abortions decide what is classed as disability or life limiting conditions. I know that DS's condition is one of those approved for abortion.

ReindeerBollocks no agreeing, your posts are very good .we seem to be on the same page

thegreylady-i agree with your basic premise, i think. It is killing a potential baby. whether you are pro choice or pro life that seems a fact to me. I think our society is right to allow abortion but must not stray too far from that underlying fact and try to find the right balance of women's rights vs. a sense of moral decency. That is very subjective though, hence the problem around things like banning gender selection and not seemingly more trivial reasons for termination.

ok, one more post because i have now put myself wrong again - seven and reindeer, i dont think people should terminate a pregnancy because of a disability, or even life limitng, another bad choice of words cos im pissed, but if i child is only going to live a few years or months and that life is going to be blighted by pain and suffering then yes i absolutely think termination is the right choice, other than that, the choice is with the parents, agin i do apologise, im quite plastered and shodlnt be posting here

Should the issue be around quicker / easier access to abortion so that the issue of late(r) terminations is reduced and gender selection as a reason is easier to weed out?

Why, if I want a termination now, should 2 doctors have the right to decide whether I can or cannot? Liking the Norwegian model above (tho would have free choice until much much later)

Seven - agreed. Disability is such a wide term. Even life limiting - that can mean any amount of time.
But incompatible with life can mean that baby can survive right up to birth and then die straight away - in those cases termination should be possible at any time.

Ah right - just checking seven

Desperate I am in close contact with people whose children have had very life limiting conditions (more severe forms of DS's condition). Those parents would argue that their child deserved the right to life. What I'm saying is that it should be equal across the board and not discriminate against disabled foetuses.

You aren't being pro life if you agree to termination of any kind. Like I said my grandmother could never comprehend why anyone would terminate, for any reason. Not that she wasn't compassionate. Quite the opposite, she never pushed her views on others but for her life began at conception and regardless of the quality of life, it was a life that was in Gods hands and whatever happened was at Gods will. This was inclusive of disabilities and rape.

This is just a bit wishy washy, and it seems to be demonising women who have social abortions, which doesn't sit right with me.

I very much agree with you reindeer and I am also pro choice.

I hate the way a lot of prolifers tend to qualify with 'unless the baby is disabled'.
Its a bit like the people who say 'gay people shouldnt be allowed to adopt unless its a hard to place child, like one thats disabled'

In case thats not clear, I am very much pro same sex adoptions too. I just wonder why those that think they are a terrible thing for 'normal' kids think they are not quite so terrible for disabled ones.

Bit of a tangent soz.

because just because the birth mother doesn't want the baby doesn't mean that no one will want it

try living with a mother who doesn't want you before you start spouting on about somebody loving the baby! My mother didn't want me, my father talked her into having me against her wishes. Then he left at 5, and so did anything kind of emotional love/support I ever had. I loved a further 13 of what I can only describe as emotional abandonment. Yuo have no idea what it feels like to know your parent doesn't give a crap about you!

I had a termination because I felt I couldn't cope with a 3rd child & an unwanted one at that. So shot me...I did it for me, my mental stability & to give my existing children the mother they deserved.

NO ONE has any right to demand any woman do anything she she doesn't want & that includes carrying a baby!

Amazing how we all get really emotionally charged when a woman comes on here, saying she is being controlled by a man in various aspects of her life, yet when a woman comes on wanting a termination, help, guidance, people gang up on her, start telling her she will cope, she will love it, etc etc. Just another form of controlling, no?

I would love to see what would happen if a woman ever comes on here saying she wants a termination, but her dh/dp is forcing her to have the baby...

Then he left at 5, and so did anything, any kind of emotional love/support I ever had. I lived a further 13years of what I can only describe as emotional abandonment. You have no idea what it feels like to know your parent doesn't give a crap about you!

Yes MrsDeVere - absolutely there should be more allowances for same sex adoptions. I know several sets of same sex couples who have all been refused fostering and adopting due to their relationship. All have used different methods to become parents and very good parents they are too.

differentname I'm sorry you had a childhood that wasn't filled with love. Please don't let anyone here make you feel guilty for your abortion, you did what was right for you and your family. I also agree that we are happy to help women who need emotional support but it shouldnt be conditional support. I hope you are happier now btw.