To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

Canada has abortion to term. this does not increase the number of late abortions, it slightly reduces it by removing time pressure from abortion decisions.

very few late abortions happen in this country as it is.

I also agree about mandatory counselling: it is treating a woman like a kid that doesn't know her own mind. No Thank You.

Edless - i totally disagree with you about the mandatory counselling. Totally niave to think that all women are informed about the options and the potential psychological affects and physical affects of termination. If a woman is in full posession of the facts and knows her own mind enough to have made the decision, the counselling session doesn't need to be more than a box ticking exercise but some women need more, especially younger or less educated women - these women might not opt into counselling when they are exactly the people who need it.

desperatenotstupid the personhood bill in America, Virginia i think but don't quote me, says life begins at the point a sperm meets an egg even if it doesn't implant, in that case hormonal contraceptive would be banned as would IVF, although i think thats unlikely to happen.

if abortions can be done up to term for disabilities then it should be the same for all unborn babies. up to term.

"Totally niave to think that all women are informed about the options and the potential psychological affects and physical affects of termination."

What would those be?

"potential" psychological effects?

According to whom?

Do you mean that they need to be told how guilty they are bound to feel because of the evil act they are about to do?

What physical effects do they need to hear about?

What other "options" do they need to be informed about.

If you want to end a pregnancy, abortion is your best option.

Chandellina you are misrepresenting what I said.

What I said was that in the UK women seek abortion rather than having it offered to them by HCPs at various stages throughout their pregnancy, as some prolifers on here seem to think happens. I was refuting the idea that women who are pregnant are offered abortion throughout their pregnancy and given counselling in order to persuade them to have abortions.

I really dislike having my posts misrepresented like that.

"gender selection for cultural reasons and women being pressured into it - I am certain that women falling pregnant by "unsuitable" boyfriends or otherwise out of wedlock are also heavily pressured in some cultures to have an abortion. Women of any culture are also sometimes pressured by their partner to abort."

What do you think happens to these women around the world in places where abortion is illegal? Hmmm?

The issues that need to be addressed are the ideas prevalent in many parts of the world about the value of female lives and that women are possessions.

Are you telling me then "athinginyourlife" that no woman who has had an abortion will experience guilt? Maybe they should just pitch up totally uninformed, christ on a bike, i had my gall bladder removed, i had a nurse sit me down and explain to me what was going to happen and what to expect afterwards, i would have thought that any woman undergoing a surgical procedure has the right to some sort of counselling as to what to expect - sheesh.

Sevenfold, im not sure what your post means, but you could then argue that babies that are born with unexpected, life-limiting disablilities could be euthanaised? And i dont know what the answer to that question should be either

I think that women who ask for abortions know what it means, desperatenotstupid.

I agree with sevenfold.

My grandmother was catholic and staunch pro lifer. She believed all babies had the right to life. However she didn't judge others who choose differently (including one of her own children). She supported despite having an opposing view.

However I don't like it when it gets murky. Such as women who have sex for fun should be forced to have their babies, but those who are raped or who have disabled babies - well then it's ok. Why? Because the woman who was raped didn't chose to have sex or because disabled babies are worth less than those who are healthy?

I'm actively pro choice and let's face it, a baby may be a person in its own right but it needs love care and guidance over the course of its life.

Incidentally, I'm so pro choice I was actively advising someone whose child had the same disability as DS to abort if she felt she wasn't able to cope once the baby was born - not pushing her in either direction but letting her know the full options. I'm not sure about the disabled option - I tend to think of DS as any other child - and I will argue the toss that he is. However it does provide more difficulty and the thoughts of the child and how much pain and suffering it will go through should be considered.

But then again I believe that abortion should be to term for all babies so don't believe late abortions should be for children with disabilities only.

I've had lots of medical procedures I've never had any counselling

I would have thought that one of the main things about a pre abortion counselling session wouldbe so that the professionals who are carrying out the termination can be certain that the woman does know all the facts, has considered all her options, and isn't being pressured into the termination by anyone else.

They do have a duty of care to the woman, and she should be encouraged as much as possible to talk about what she is doing.

So what about a woman who has mild learning difficulties? Pressured by her BF? Do you not think that that woman should be given the benefit of counselling then? I know what abortion means, im relatively intelligent, although it might not show here cos im plastered, but i dont actually know what it involves

My post didn't quite convey what I was trying to express. Just ignore me knackered not drunk

Two doctors have to sign it off, having ascertained that there is a risk of physical or psychological damage to the woman. Conversations about what it all means and why are you doing it happen. Why pretend they don't.

People on here now think that women in the UK (NI excepted) can get abortions without having a conversation about it with anyone?

This thread gets stranger and stranger.

Iusetoomuchkitchenroll that is exactly what i am saying but im not articulating it very well. Also, just because im personally against abortion people seem to be misinterpreting what i am saying. I am not suggesting the counselling is to talk women out of it, i should think that once you are sat in that seat , your mind is pretty made up, but it would be barbaric not to prepare someone for what could happen. And yes, who really knows how they are going to feel after an abortion.

hello GP I'm pregnant
hello patient I know you well how are the mild learning difficulties
good thanks I'd like an abortion
oh right fine off you go to the hosp then

Unlikely.

"Are you telling me then "athinginyourlife" that no woman who has had an abortion will experience guilt?"

Nope.

But I think the "counselling" you want to force them to have that will tell them all about how guilty they will feel is disingenuous bollocks.

Fewer women would feel guilty if there weren't so many people telling them how evil they were for not suffering through a pregnancy they didn't want.

desperate should women have counselling about how it can effect them prior to having babies?
There are a host of physical and psychological problems linked to pregnancy, birth and being a parent.

Should all pregnant women, in fact, have the facts laid out about the positives and negatives of proceeding or aborting, as a matter of course?
I think that would be quite a good idea actually.

"They do have a duty of care to the woman, and she should be encouraged as much as possible to talk about what she is doing."

Why should she talk about it?

I certainly didn't want (or need) to talk about it.

I wanted it over with. That was all.

Coercing me into "counselling" against my will would have been spiteful and punitive, not helpful in any way.

Some of the views on here make me feel quite nauseous.

Have NC for this.

When I was 15 I was in an abusive relationship with an older man, but choosing to have sex with him (I was not coerced into sex or raped). I had tried to kill myself a year earlier and had major depression. I was living between houses and avoiding my mother (also abusive) and school. I fell pregnant despite taking the MAP.

Should I have been forced to endure 9 months of pregnancy? To give that child up at the end of it?

I would, without doubt, have killed myself. I had a TOP at 12 weeks (long time ago, pre abortion via medication, had to wait until 12 weeks apprently to ensure the TOP worked. That was horrendous.

You cannot have a pro-life stance that says it's ok for a 15 year old to terminate but bot say a 17 year old. Still a foetus.

I then was - unrelatedly - diagnosed with severe endomtrisosis and told I'd never have kids. It was a 12 year battle to get my beautiful D'S.

Was that battle what I deserved? I NEVER changed my vehemently pro-choice stance once during that battle. The ONLY time I ever felt guilt was when my GP referred me for counselling a year later. The counsellor was adamantly prolife and took great joy in spelling out how much better I'd have felt if I'd just give through with the pregnancy and found a 'nice couple' to adopt.

Sorry if this is incoherent - the prolife views here are really very upsetting.

Ahh, im too plastered to be on this thread, i nearly posted disagreeing wiht my own post

Reindeer you believe that an abortion can happen at 37 weeks, for a healthy baby? Please tell me im wine goggles have misinterpreted that FGS

disability does not = unhealthy

SQ - sorry to misrepresent your post - I misunderstood.