To think abortion law is a tough nut to crack?

[chandellina]

so the Telegraph has revealed doctors allowing abortion on sex-selection grounds. I see a couple threads on In the News expressing disgust over this, a view shared by many, I'm sure.

But as far as I understand you can have an abortion on demand for just about any reason - not feeling able to cope, not feeling financially secure, too young, too old.

So even if you were terminating for gender, couldn't you just give another reason? And if you believe in a woman's absolute right to choose - why require a stated reason at all?

My point is that the law seems very flimsy, and why be moral about sex selection and not other things - like terminating because a pregnancy interferes with a desired age gap between children, or it otherwise not being "the right time." I know there are cultural issues involved too with gender selection, but those probably are also in play for women coerced by family not to have a child out of wedlock, etc.

thoughts?

"but was soo poorly wiht the IVF that she just couldnt go through it again so those embryos were destroyed. Gawd, thats quite a dilemma for someone isnt it"

it can be, if they have been lucky enough to have embryos frozen but I had 3 embryos destroyed which were not viable. Many IVF egg collections result in several embryos being created but then they are examined and often not used. Mine were multiplying too fast and in an erratic way so they decided not to implant them. Fortunately 2 were ok and I ended up having a son. There was no dilemma involved for me. I can see how it could be distressing for someone with frozen embryos they had hoped to one day have implanted but for whatever reason were unable to.

SQ, if it isn't going to be used then why offer it at all? Norway seems to get by with only really offering termination to 18 weeks. I wonder what their 'back street abortion' rate is like?

YuleingFanjo, are you calling me a liar?? and yeah, she wears dungareers and has pink hair actually - she is a vile cow with a vile reputation. I am talking about one woman, thank god. Women's libber - lol that was a bit of an unfortunate description, you'd have to see it to believe it. Yuling, if you read my previous post i have posted quite a sane post to say that whilst i am personally anti abortion i wouldnt jude women who are faced with that decision, and i stand by that, but this woman is not a figment of my imagination, you will have to forgive me, its waay past wine o clock and im unable to make a coherant argument.

I'm in the UK SQ.

also - the IVF story doesn't make sense, by the time the embryos were created then your friend would have had all the drugs to boost the follicles so having had them created and possibly frozen she wouldn't have had to go through any other kind of drug treatment to cause sickness surely?

"offered"

Is there an idea amongst the anti-abortion crew that women are routinely "offered" abortions at any and all stages of their pregnancies, and are additionally offered counselling to persuade them to have abortions?

Women seek abortions. They are not persuaded to have them by unscrupulous types for reasons that have not been explained anywhere on the thread.

Are you in NI bumbley

Yuling, im very happy for you that you have your son, that is brilliant, i am a bit plastered, but i have to admit that your post there has given me something to think about, as i have always been of the view that life begins at conception, but clearly its not that straightforward, of course there is no dillema and i have never even stopped to think about IVF in that light and i would never be against it. My friend who had her DD by IVF did have to have her embryos destroyed (wrong word, sorry) and she was gutted but i think because she knew that after that, there would definately be no more babies.

"SQ, if it isn't going to be used then why offer it at all? Norway seems to get by with only really offering termination to 18 weeks. I wonder what their 'back street abortion' rate is like?"

you'd need to look at the stats for their abortions really. if, like in the UK, 90% of their abortions take place before 12 weeks it's very likely that their late abortion rate is just as miniscule percentagewise as it is here. Maybe they deal with abortions more quickly?

not sure about your last post there yuleing as that is a good point,there was definately a reason why she didnt have anotehr shot at it though. Good thing is, she has a lovely DD and a lovely happy family - i coudl never vew IVF as a bad thing.

Isn't there something now about only fertilising one egg at a time for implantation? Or maybe it's only one egg can be implanted....it came up on a previous thread wrt IVF...

Yes, SQ

desperatenotstupid, sorry - I feel like i look like i am picking on you and that's not my intention honestly.
I think possibly the woman in the pub is a liar or maybe one of the very few women who do unfortunately lie to get a termination. Most women don't, having one abortion is enough to make most women take extra precautions though none are 100%.

sorry again - I really didn't mean to sound so rude.

yes wine o'clock here as well - spent the day in hospital with my middle one who had her ears done - knackered

I have pro-life friends - I respect their views - but I dislike people who try and occupy the middle ground in this debate to make their views more 'sympathetic'

you either believe life begins at conception (even if that is in a dish) - thus all abortion is wrong or you believe the choice is down to the individual and you trust women to make that choice

all this 'except when a woman has been raped/the baby is disabled/the woman is going to die' crap is just crap - either it's wrong or it isn't - at any stage and for what ever reason

night all xxx

"Isn't there something now about only fertilising one egg at a time for implantation? "

hmm, not that I am aware of, they would have to freeze the eggs to do that I think? mine were all mixed with my husband's sperm just after they were collected and then left for a couple of days to see if they fertilised, then they grade them and in my case there were 2 hey could implant while they left the others to see if they were doing anything odd (they were lower grade). had they been ok they would have frozen them but after a few days they definitely could tell they weren't very good. Had they frozen them and saved them for a second implantation at a later date then they may have been viable but there could have been a possibility that they would not implant or there would be something seriously wrong with them and so on.

So what would be the problem with reducing the abortion limit in the UK then Yuleing? For disabilities abortion is allowed to term so why keep this 24 week limit in at all? If a woman needed a late term abortion for a medical reason she is entitled to one even without that 24 week limit.

oh and I think now they only like to implant a maximum of 2 embryos as multiple pregnancies are riskier. From two you could potentially get 4 (or more!) babies really because you could get twins if that makes sense?

why 24 weeks

is loging off honest!

Thanks Yuleing. I'll have to do some reading to see if I can figure out what I'm thinking of...it's been a long week. 2 yo DS2 has CP and I've been surviving on feck all hours of sleep for the last few nights...zzzzzzzzzz

gordy, I think some pro-lifers can reconcile themselves with abortion when the woman's life is in danger because of it being 'in self defence' as such. Just as some people can reconcile themselves with killing another person in self defence but wouldn't condone commiting murder iykwim.

bumbley then I am sure you understand why the attitude to abortion on MN is different to the attitude you find at home.

"So what would be the problem with reducing the abortion limit in the UK then Yuleing?"

it would make it harder for women to get an abortion when they need one. I believe abortion should be available up to any limit, I don't believe this would significantly increase the amount of late abortions. I think it is wrong to tell women they cannot take control of their own unwanted pregnancies without having to jump through endless hoops.

gordy, because that is the current law in the UK - abortion until 24 weeks unless it is for medical reasons...

"it would make it harder for women to get an abortion when they need one.'

but you've just said that hardly anyone has late term abortions anyway. So how is it making it harder? Women who have abortions at that stage are usually on medical grounds anyway...

Glitter my friend lost her daughter at about 20 weeks it was marked down as a 'natural termination' really upset her as well.

yuling please, no need to apologise ive had too much vino anyway and my post was a bit ill thouht out at best .

gordy if you are still here, im am on the fence about when life begins because i dont honestly know what to think about it. By the defintions of life which i can't remember off the top of my head (there are 12 criteria, i remember that much, but that refers to bacteria and plant life too) then yes, i believe that life starts at conception. But where do we draw the line? I don't know. I have a mirena coil which works by preventin implantation, so does that mean im potentially having abortions every month I don't tend to think about it :( Im not sure if viability should be the cut off point as well, i think sentience (sp) maybe, when a foetus can feel, we should not be hurting it

the technical term used for a miscarriage on the NHS is often "spontaneous abortion," which can be pretty upsetting.

anyway, i wandered off there for a bit but think this thread is still getting bogged down in the fundamental debate around abortion rather than the nuances that go into pro-choice legislation.

re: gender selection for cultural reasons and women being pressured into it - I am certain that women falling pregnant by "unsuitable" boyfriends or otherwise out of wedlock are also heavily pressured in some cultures to have an abortion. Women of any culture are also sometimes pressured by their partner to abort. So I'm not sure I agree with SQ's assertion that women seek abortion (for their own purposes.)