To think this is abuse?

[EdnaClouds]

I just need to know if it is reasonable to say this person was an abusive parent.

This was decades ago btw, the child is now an adult.

Failing to provide adequate clothing, particularly underwear. A typical incident was the child being in top juniors, having to do PE in her underwear and having such big, revealing, holes in her knickers she was too embarrassed to join in.

Not even having a tooth brush. At the age of 12 the child was smart enough to join a dentist herself. She got her first ever tooth brush. She needed 8 fillings.

Not providing a school uniform. At the age of 13 the child got a Saturday job and saved up for months to buy her own uniform.

The child never even had her own bed. She shared a single bed with her sister who was 14 months younger.

The first 3 are very bad. The last is not unusual in people my age from my country and was common in normal loving families, so I personally wouldn;t include that.

Also, eight fillings was commonplace in the 70s/80s particularly in the UK which has an appalling oral health record. With no toothbrush I'm surprised it wasn't more tbh.

What's 'lower juniors' could someone explain what age group that is please?

I am very sorry that child had to grow up like that, Edna

she should have been given the luxury of knowing she was important, she did matter and she is as good as any boy

children who don't have that luxury are unknowing at the time, but with adulthood (and perhaps having dc of your own) it comes crashing in just by how much you were shortchanged

Infants to around 8.

lower juniors would have been current primary years 2-4 (in my educational area, anyway)

Edna. You are good enough and you deserve to feel that you are. You owe it to yourself to work through all these memories in a safe environment where you can be supported to understand that you did nothing wrong. I am a fine one to talk because I am in a very similar position but with support of rl friends, dh, some wonderful people on this site, my GP and a counsellor, I have finally begun the journey to prove to myself once and for all that I was the innocent in my childhood and I didn't deserve the terrible things that happened. You didn't deserve it either. It wasn't your fault and you deserve to be happy.

so yes, ages 6-8/9

I'd say Lower Juniors was current years 3-4 or 5. Age 8/9 ish.

Doing pe in your underwear was not unusual when I was at primary school (1989-1995ish) Not in juniors that I remember, or maybe we had all learnt not to forget our pe kit by then!

I am a child of the 70s and 80s and some of your post resonates with me OP.

I am the eldest of 3 - I have a sister and a brother (the youngest) Irish catholic family (my mums side anyway)

I was sent out to work at 14 (had been doing babysitting for a while before that) and every penny I earnt had to go to my parents to pay for food etc. We were pretty poor, really, but what sticks with me (and hurts) is that my siblings were never treated like me...

I was cleaning, cooking and washing and ironing from a young age - 10 ish - for the whole family. Both parents worked (low paid unskilled jobs). I nursed my mum through 2 breakdowns in my teens/early 20s. Home life was difficult at times as my sister was (is) a real bitch and my parents just couldnt cope with her.

My brother has never had a job for longer than a year. He is now 35. He is unemployed and has been for 3 years. They give him money and buy him cigarettes.

My siblings have no idea how bad it was tbh...I was expected to do it all and I did. I even had to take time off school after mums hysterectomy to look after her (they sent the welfare officer out but nothing happened)

They werent pleased when I stayed on and did A levels - they needed the money my wage would bring in but when my sister left school the following year and started work they never took a penny off her...I didnt find this out til years later. They were taking my wages from me every week and I only worked in a restaurant at the weekend!

Was I abused? No. I dont think so, but I was treated badly compared to my siblings and even now as an adult and parent myself I struggle to understand why

To answer your question OP I think that child was neglected

I remember children being made to do PE in their underwear if they forgot their kit. But I also remember that if it was obvious that a lack of uniform/kit/ etc was down to family circumstances; that items would magically find their way to the children that needed them from the "resources cupboard". I was born in 1965, and there were a couple of children who were clearly not looked after properly in my class.

I also remember visits from the school health services (nit nurse/ health visitors/ dental service/ hearing clinic/ optician) who screened children that obviously needed help that they weren't getting from their own families. I remember that we all got shiny red plastic tooth mugs and a little tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush after one visit.

Families who needed this support have clearly always existed, Neglect is sometimes deliberate abuse, and sometimes an act of omission due to insurmountable circumstances. Only the OP knows which it is in this case. But it's a very sad story.

My mother was fastidious about underwear (the old "what will people think if you get hit by a bus" thing) but I certainly had second hand clothes - and from outside the family .... moind you they were hand-me-downs then, and not in a era of charity shops and thrift. My father darned his own socks, actually he could knit his own socks too.

I left school in '83 and you still did PE - incl cross country in your knickers - regulation bottle green kidney warmers, so I'd have been 17. Got photos as it happens, coz I was in the athletics squad.

eight fillings was commonplace in the 70s/80s particularly in the UK which has an appalling oral health record

Good point, I dont remember the dentist until I went to infants, 6 fillings and I had a rigorous tooth brushing set of parents.

Poverty didnt disappear with the welfare state - which is far more generous now than in the 70's. Neither has it erradicted it.

The 70's were still very make-do-and-mend. Hence my comment about darning.

I always think it unwise to put yesterdays situations into todays context. Otherwise we'd be slating our g/g/g grandparents for putting children they couldn't feed up chimneys or in the workhouse.

Er, it could simply be poverty, not necessarily intent to neglect (if that doesn't cancel itself out...)

It's neglect. Neglect is a form of abuse, it's a terrible thing to feel uncared for as it makes you feel worthless and undeserving.

I had emotional and verbal abuse as a child and suffered mental health problems as an adult. For many years I wasn't sure if I was really mistreated or if I was just a pathetic wimp and genuinely unlovable. I was so introverted I got bullied at school. I eventually started self harming and tried to kill myself several times. It's only when I had kids of my own I was convinced my abuser was in the wrong. I would never treat my kids like that.

Even invisible abuse is abuse. It doesn't have to be physical or sexual to do severe emotional harm. It's still real even if some people don't believe it happens.

There is light at the end of the tunnel though, I am stronger than I have ever been. I hope this person gets to that stage.

I always think it unwise to put yesterdays situations into todays context
Excellent point. And yes, I recall items 'magically' appearing from a cupboard in school, in particular a girl in my class who turned up in Mary Janes, socks and a skirt which barely covered her arse whilst there was 3ft of snow outside. We were actually ENVIOUS that she got lovely navy blue woolly tights from the cupboard as our uniform was brown and navy was not allowed! I suspect today she would be ridiculed to death

I was born in 76 and it was normal to do pe in underar if you didn't have kit with you. Some kids in my class forgot it every week. I was an adult before I put two an two together.

We didn't have much money and I had lots of clothes that were home made, or from charity shops or hand me downs or markets, and I remember lots of us being like that, but we all knew we were loved and we had everything we needed, just perhaps not new.

I look at my kids today and I feel they are ruined, but because I grew up being bullied about what I wore because we had very little money, I over buy for them.

I can only imagine what that little girl felt like. And think how proud she should be that she was smart and resourceful enough to do things like find a dentist. I hope her life now is much much better.

We used to have a slight family joke about my dsis underwear.

This is abusive too actually.

How embarrasing for your poor sister....

Yes, suburbophobe.

I'm disliking the amount of minimising in this thread. I'm as old as Edna (if not older) and, while we did PE in our knickers, they were not knickers full of holes. The was a girl in my class - I guess there's one in most classes - who was always badly turned out. I shan't itemise things here in case she reads it. There wasn't anything massively wrong with her presentation, but it was painfully clear she was either neglected or controlled at home; she didn't fit in and wasn't allowed to. She was a massively unhappy girl and eventually tried to suicide. I wouldn't like to think of Mumsnetters picking her problems apart and insisting it wasn't that bad. Because it was. That. Bad.

Sounds v similar to my childhood.

Yes, is abuse. Neglect = abuse.

Hope you're OK OP. :)

joking about underwear with small children is hardly in and of itself abusive. Its a common topic of amusement with small children.

I am sure that this little girl was just lovely, and shy and sweet, id want to give her a hug - i hope that she found happiness and a sense of self worth, i am sure that she values that and passes on those values to her family now xxx

it could simply be poverty, not necessarily intent to neglect

I grew up in poverty in the 70s, it sounds more like neglect to me

When my (virtually all hand-me-down) clothes had holes they were darned or patched. Clothes were always clean and pressed (even knickers, but that's my ironing obsessed Mum for you ) I always had new Clarks shoes though, measured to fit. (Only ever had one pair at a time though)

PE in your undies at primary school was standard

I always had a toothbrush, but it wasn't changed very often

I had my own bed (I was the only girl though) but I remember the sheets were Gran's old ones with patches on them. Sheets changed weekly, boil washed and pressed (I'm slovenly in comparison)

I had a full school uniform to start secondary school (I remember my Mum having a jar and saving up for months beforehand to make sure she could afford everything on the school's list of essentials)

Money was very tight and Mum & Dad definitely went without to ensure we kids got enough. Neither of them smoked or drank or had new clothes very often. It was very much make do & mend for as long as they could. I was most definitely not neglected.

OP - I'm sorry for what you went through.