"I'm not racist but..."

[TessTickular]

There seems to be a lot of people on here who don't seem to realise that racism is a crime. They justify it by saying they know someone who is [insert whatever] or by claiming that they are pointing out differences not being prejudiced.

Over the last week I have been horrified by a number of diverse threads where casual racism is hardly even noted.

African midwives, Americans, Australians, Gypsies... IT IS NOT OK PEOPLE.

Please, Mumsnetters, enough is enough.

AIBU to request that we should ALL be standing up to racists and stop apologising for and accepting casual racism?

If you ever go on a thread about Scottish Independence, some of the remarks just me.
I always leave the thread, as I get a bit bored by some of the anti Scottish crap that comes out, but, just to make it clear, the threads are not anti English but just intelligent debate about the future of the UK.
Not racist no, but very unpleasant sometimes.

MMmmm - born a catholic, went to catholic school, not overly involved in religion now.

Found your comments sississy offensive & I am not easily offended.

My experience was multicultural & being accepting of others, a good foundation for life. I would happily send my child to the same experience.

bigots occur everywhere - in the catholic faith, in every religion, in every culture. To make a sweeping statement such as you did smacks of bigotry itself which is I guess why you are being panned.

'i don't care is someone is black, green, purple orange or white,'

I read somewhere recently that this kind of comment is actually racist.

This doesn't mean that all Catholics are racist. It just means that some racist parents will opt for a Catholic school in order to avoid their child mixing with other races/religions.

it doent work like that round this way. Whites actively avoid the catholic (boys school) because it is (not my words) "full of blacks gangs and drugdealers". I've worked in that particular school and it is one of the worst places ever, quite feral. Having to split up 3, supposedly 14yo youths having a verbal spat in a class room, then having them stand up and square up to you and all I could think was "fuck this for a game of soldiers!"

And I say "supposedly 14yo youths" because I can tell a 14yo from a young man, and draw the conclusion that they quite probably were in the country on false passports. Been known before.

The second conclusion on reflection was that as people from different parts of Africa there were some racial/tribal tensions between them, but as much as they clearly disliked each other, they disliked me (white female) more than they disliked each other.

It's a horrible school, always over the papers for fighting in the shopping mall, stabbings, inter-gang vilence. The only saving grace is that a large proportion are busses in from inner London to male up the quotas because no one round here will touch it with a barge pole. Therefore they get bussed back out again and take their nasty subculture with them.

Conversely the girls catholic school next door was a joy.

If someone was to say that jobs should be given to British residents as a priority, would that be racist? Why should Tesco be allowed to advertise only in Poland for staff? That means there are uk residents missing out on work opportunities.

I personally think we need to sort out our own country before we implode like Greece is going to. It must be frustrating for kids wo can't even get a Saturday job because they are going to be filled by non residents. It is near on impossible for kids to get jobs, experience, money and a home, And it is getting worse.

I think there needs to be a few breaths need to be taken sometimes.

NoMoreMarbles I can imagine you get all sorts of charmers to do deal with when discussing call centres, however, I will say this:

I have had some excellent advice and service (especially with complicated IT stuff) from call centres based in India (and many other countries) and it's fantastic that they have a level of understanding in English (usually not their first language) that is sufficiently high to be able to understand and communicate quite complex information. All good.

However....sometimes I just cannot understand a fecking word they are saying to me. Their accent is very strong and if they are talking in complicated technical gobbledygook about the inner workings of a Dyson or whatever, that I am not familiar with at the best of times, a really strong accent and the added complication that I cannot see their mouths move to help me decifer things.....well it can be incredibly frustrating, and leaves me none the wiser.

I am not blaming them. They are doing an excellent job in the best way they can. But it is not always a sufficient or appropriate style of customer service if 75% of their customer base are struggling to grasp the information they need. It does not make a person racist to feel that way or to say it out loud, but somehow they are made to feel they are in the wrong for mentioning it, and particularly self-absorbed and stupid people will start to use the sort of defensive language you described, and see the other person on the end of the phone as the stupid one!

My worst ever 'can't understand a word you are saying' call centre experience was with a guy from Scotland.

A

hilly from what you are saying does that make me the stupid one? saying I can't understand them Indians is a prejudiced comment, however you dress it up...you try doing a technical job, in a language foreign to your own, whilst constantly 1) defending your right to do the job; 2) having to repeat the information as the person calling isn't listening closely to the info provided and 3) trying to decipher the many, many varied accents of the country you are providing the service to... I couldn't do it in their shoes! I am a white, British woman and sometimes trip up with the varied British accents. Funnily enough I don't have a problem with Indian/African/philipino/insert "foreign" accent here accents it's a case of being patient, as with a lot of things patience goes a long way.

The worst call centre service I had was indeed a foreign call centre. They were unable to grasp the fact that just because their computer system said that the card was ordered didn't mean it was delivered.

However, I suspect this level of incompetence was due to it being Santander, not the location of the call centre.

I do hate foreign call centres because the accent coupled with a dodgy line often makes it difficult to understand the operative. Nothing racist about that. Not every case of disliking something which just happens to involve another race is racist.

"saying I can't understand them Indians is a prejudiced comment, however you dress it up..."

No it isn't. It can be a statement of fact and it is ridiculous to pretend otherwise. Not only that, but sometimes the operator cannot understand what I am trying to say, either ... especially when that deviates from a situation for which they have a script. When I speak Spanish, I cannot roll my "r"s ... which can sometimes make it hard for a Spaniard to understand me.... I don't see this as an example of "racism" but rather as an indication that I need to work on my accent.

I do struggle to understand some accents in off shore call centres but have also struggled with heavy Irish or Scottish accents. It's more to do with being on the phone rather than face to face and nothing to do with racism/xenephobia/predjudice etc.

I agree with Aldiwhore, most racism I have come across is from people with limited understanding and experience of different races and cultures and who try and apportion blame for societies ills and link unconnected incidents. I think there is also prolific reading of the Sun/DM etc. Their belief is that Britain is full of marauding hook-handed muslim preachers plotting to blow up their local Tesco.

My mum is a lovely woman but commented to me and my sister that a new colleague 'is muslim but she is really lovely'. She didn't even realise what she had said until me and Dsis rolled around laughing and asked her 'why did you expect that she had half a pound of semtex in her bag?'. DM is not racist just sheltered and from an area with little diversity.

depends in what context is being used. Probably,if you want to say something negative about someone and you mention their nationality then you will be criticised but if you are using it in a positive i don't think anyone will say anything....
Sississy, there are people like that on both sides so it's not only catholics who are like that. Racisam is individual,not a community thing....

saying I can't understand them Indians is a prejudiced comment, however you dress it up

No, it's saying you can't understand them. Ditto Geordies and some Scots.

I do think the more sensitive "I'm not racist, but you are" types see racism where it doesn't exist.

At least most catholic schools will take small percentage of non-catholic pupils unlike other religion schools. And no,that does not make me racist.....

It is racist as its singling out a specific race/stereotyping all those answering a call from another offshore call centre as "Indian" when they may not be... The worst call centre experience I have had was someone in the city I live in, same accent as me etc I see it as the companys fault rather than blaming the person though as it is clearly a training issue and I passed my feedback back to them about it. So just because it is an offshore centre it doesn't mean automatically you should expect bad service and start the call on a bad foot. Like I said patience is often the key.

I agree that saying "then indians" as if all indians are the same as racist. But it si also true that it can be very difficult to understand some call centre operators and sometimes they don't understand me because of my accent. I have had to ask to speak to someone else when I was literally having to spell out every second word. And my accent is very mild.

It is NBU to expect call centre workers to be easily understood and to be able to understand customers. Talking over the phone makes it harder to understand anyones speech as you can't see their mouth and some customers will have poorer hearing.

To express the fact that you are strugling to understand someone is not being racist.

It is not racist to expect a person who has accepted a job in a call centre to be able to speak clearly. Weather its in their own or a second/third language.

Is is racist to say 'them Indians'.

No that is just bad grammar, Misty.

Anyone who says they can't understand "them Indians" needs to consider the accuracy of their own English before criticising anyone else's.

I get that some people may struggle with the accents, but does that mean that only people with RP accents should be allowed to work in that sort of role? I have certainly struggled with some Scottish accents previously - particularly from the west side of Scotland - and I know others who struggle with accents from Northern Ireland, Newcastle etc. Should these people be banned from working in call centres?

Yes people who work in call centres should have easy to understand accents.

NoMoreMarbles no, I am absolutely NOT saying that you are the stupid - one - you are misunderstanding my post - read it again! I am saying that some of the customers you deal with saying 'them Indians are stupid cos I can't understand them' are, in fact, a bit stupid.

I completely agree with what you said about the challenges of the job, for Indian call centre workers in particular, and on a personal level I sympathise with them. However, As a UK customer, if I have an issue with a UK based company or service, and I need UK relevant customer service intervention, I do not see why I, the customer, should need to exercise 'patience' when trying to understand someone, who sometimes cannot even fully understand me. Of course I DO exercise patience, beacuse I am nice, polite and generally understanding sort of gal - but even I have my limits. The fault is entirely with the companies, though - not their employees.

There is nothing wrong with expecting workers at a call centre serving a UK or English customer base to be able to speak in CLEAR EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE English. I don't care what country they are from, or even if they are actually from the UK. A very heavy regional or foreign accent of any sort which leans heavily away from RP will make it difficult for most people from other regions to understand them fully, whereas everyone who speaks English (pretty much the world over) can understand RP and standard, correct useage grammar. Which is why we have it, of course, however unfashionable it may be to say so.

I think aldiwhore brings a bit of humanity to the debate with the story about her gran. Some people who seemracist are struggling to adapt in difficult circumstances - eg White working class boys in non-working families, whose typical life paths have been dismantled due to loss of manufacturing, recession and more qualified candidates moving in. They at least deserve a bit of understanding and education before you judge.

Also, it pees me off when bleeding heart liberals cry racism on any debate about culturAl difference. It is possible to comment constructively on behaviours of people from different nationalities. I work for a public service with a lot of racial diversity btw.

So op is BU or NBU depending on nuances of each individual case.

I yearn for the days of RP at the BBC. It was the accepted gold standard of pronounciation/enunciation.

A "Forrin" call centre for a product is very annoying but when I get cold called from a "Forrin" call centre, generally about "the computer" I'm afraid that I tell them to remove my number from their list and never call again. Anyway, I digress ...

I completely and totally agree with all of that post Confuseddd.

I found it very interesting when Billy Bragg, who is famous for his left wing views said as much, in defence of Dagenham and Barking around the time of the election, when there was much talk about the BNP possibly doing well in the area, and there was lots of navel-gazing and head-scratching among the left wing intelligensia about why that might be.

He got away with saying what a middle class Tory voter never could, because people just felt confident that they knew he was not approaching the very difficult and complex issue with a hidden racist or right wing agenda. Morrisey has done the same. Working class, dyed in the wool Labour voting boys through and through who understand how these attitudes develop over time in a way that the Champagne Socialists never will.

Its comments like "White people should not be allowed to breed" from a tiny minority of foreign midwives, that make people afraid of all foreign midwives. How can they not be afraid? What can be done about it?