To be really shocked by the Panorama show Poor America

[MrsHeffley]

I just can't believe that Americans don't care how their poor get literally no healthcare or help at all ie no job no food,home,benefits or healthcare what so ever.

I love America and we have American family but dp and I were appalled and totally shocked.

All those families living in drains and tent cities,schools sending kids home with food and worst of all zero healthcare and all those hundreds of desperate people queuing up in cars on the off chance of free medical care,the girl whose mum ate rats.....

The complete utter lack of hope.I just don't get how such a rich country can justify in all these years not voting in free healthcare for the poor at the very least.

The US health system is totally fucked up.

We're moving soon and the cheapest plan my employer offers involves me paying $700 a month for the family. That's considered normal.

But Americans do see healthcare as a personal responsibility. While I think their system is unfair, inefficient and inequitable, I think we could do with a bit more of a sense of personal responsibility here.

I was on a board that took the quotes for medical insurance coverage when I worked at the police department. It was made up of different local government employees that all worked for the same municipality. The increases the insurance companies wanted and the amount to pay for the employees was shocking. I think I would have rather not known.

The problem, ElaineBenes, is that in the states, people are more terrified of socialism than they are of a child not getting appropriate medical care. I have seriously driven myself batty trying to get my sister to understand that in the US model of health insurance that CHILDREN are suffering from lack of care. She didn't care - their parents should take care of it. sigh... I just don't understand that mentality, and I grew up there and was raised there, for heaven's sake!!

Thanks for answering Triggles.

I very much agree that people should take more personal responsibility than they currently have to in this country, but healthcare is such a basic need. And even those of us in this country that do have a big sense of personal responsibility and are able to pay our way through (British) life would be massively disadvantaged if we didn't have free healthcare.

I would have been quite happy to have a small amount taken out of my pay packet in the states to go towards making sure everyone had free healthcare. I think it's important. My sister, on the other hand, absolutely begrudged it.

I think she may have been dropped on her head as a baby...

Unum 2010 Annual Report

"More importantly, there are clear indications that there are significant longer-term growth opportunities in our business. As a market leader in both the U.S. and U.K., we are well-positioned to be part of the solution to a growing set of issues impacting individuals, businesses, and governments in our markets.
The unfortunate reality is that most lower- and middle- income consumers in the U.S. and U.K. lack the basic insurance to protect themselves and their families should something unexpected occur ? a need that?s been made even more apparent following the financial crisis. For example:
? Nearly 80 percent of Americans live paycheck- to-paycheck and therefore lack a safety net to provide support in the event of an accident, illness, or injury;
? A full 90 million Americans ? or 65 percent of the workforce ? lack disability coverage, while only one in 10 U.K. workers has disability insurance;
? Life insurance coverage in the U.S. is at a 50-year low.
Additionally, governments in the U.S. and U.K. ? and throughout the world for that matter ? are struggling to address growing deficit problems, limiting their ability to offer some of the financial protections that have been provided in the past. While it?s difficult to know what lies ahead for government-provided benefits in the U.S. and U.K., what is clear is that neither government is likely to increase benefits. Instead, they will almost certainly ask citizens to take more responsibility for protecting their own financial security.
...
"We believe it?s also important as industry leaders to take a more active role in the political process, particularly when it comes to informing our policy- makers. In both the U.S. and U.K., we have continued to work closely with government officials to help educate them on the importance of employer- sponsored benefits in protecting people?s financial well-being. As I?ve noted previously, decisions in Congress and Parliament can have a significant impact on our customers? businesses and our markets, and for that reason we will remain engaged in the process "

I find some of the phrasing of this obscene given that the UK does in fact have hypothecated compulsory National Insurance, funded jointly by the citizen and the employer.

Ie, exactly the sort of thing Unum is hoping to muscle in on. And I can't dredge up the ref at this time of night, but there's definitely been at least one senior Tory making noises about "the private sector taking on responsibility for insurance".

There are links to petitions to try and stop the government destroying our NHS near the bottom of the second page of this thread if anyone would be interested in signing.

Some more odds and ends.

"New Labour, the market state, and the end of welfare", article on a conference in 2001, showing UNUM involved at every level in the restructuring of the welfare state. As Unum put it:
"The impending changes to the State ill-health benefits system will create unique sales opportunities across the entire disability market and we will be launching a concerted effort to harness the potential in these."

And for the NHS, here's a conference in 2010, "Opportunities Post Global Healthcare Reforms". The lovely Mark Britnell (civil servant who oversaw structuring for consortia and was promptly given a job by one of them): ?GPs will have to aggregate purchasing power and there will be a big opportunity for those companies that can facilitate this process.? Ie NHS managers doing this job will disappear, and profit-making companies will do it instead.

Mark Britnell is of course famous for saying "The NHS will be shown no mercy and the best time to take advantage of this will be in the next couple of years."

I live in Massachusetts. Its compulsory to have health insurance here. If you dont have it they get you when you file your taxes.

I know that in all the years Ive lived here (25) Ive never had such crappy insurance and paid so much for it ( I carry the health insurance for my family)

I have a very good,very well paid job, in the last 3 years my premiums have doubled and I now have an $8000 a year family deductible. My plan isnt bad,it covers all doctors visits etc with $30 for each visit and $200 for each ER visit but If any one gets sick Im to pay the first $8000 of that before my insurance will pay :( . I now have to pay between $15 and $50 per prescription, last year they were free.

I wish we had the national health here

If your not working you are required to buy coverage from the state. Its stupid money. Its $800-$900 a month and that ONLY covers if you need hospital or high expense stuff ie no routine or regular sick visits, it basically just kicks in when you are hospitalized so the state doesnt need to cover that. If you lose your job and cant afford COBRA,and who can Its totally outrageous, they offer Mass Health for your kids when you apply for unemployment. Just try finding a doctor who actually takes Mass Health, ( Its welfare insurance, and as the state dictates how much they pay, and its very little, very few doctors will accept it) Most peoples only option on Mass Health is to sit in an emergency room for hours waiting to be seen cos hospitals are not allowed to refuse you treatment even if you have mass health or even no insurance

Doctors and hospitals start billing you within a month,even if you have insurance. Its then up to you to sort things out. You spend ages on phone with the hospital then your insurance company tying to sort out why something hasnt been paid when it should have been. Everyone is rude and assumes your trying to stiff them. If its not paid PDQ then they send you to collection and those fckers are RELENTLESS

I wish we had the NHS here

Yes, some insurance companies pay on 80/20, where you pay up front, and they reimburse you for 80%. But not until, of course, you've reached your deductible.

Because people wait longer to get treatment, knowing that hospitals are not supposed to refuse treatment if it's an actual emergency, that means that A&E (ER) waiting times are ridiculous.

I agree, on all the Americans postings, I failed totally to get a gynae doctor in the 3 yrs I lived in the states, because none in our local area took our united health care insurence, I have had ca cervix x2 in the UK once at 20 once at 30 yearly follow up on the NHS and treatment pronto both times so you can imagine my fear at not finding a doctor who would do this on our insurence.
we took out the best insurence we could co pay of only $25, but when we moved out to thte US and we found we wheren't the only ones caught by this we moved in the June, the insurences where only active from Nov, so we went through months of no insurence, it was really stressful.
and you think private is quite on demand, think again! it eas not uncommon, hang on it was common to wait 4 plus hours just to see our GP! and the day in the ER well...during the swine flu...truely dire, and when they did finally see me, as a nurse was horrified, and this was on top of my horrified already! patients where triaged in another room, which just happened to have a full wall window, no curtains where pulled over they where spripping people!
Enter ER, you see reception, give details and then get to go to payments fill out loads of forms...then you get to go in the triage wait...something wrong in that.
over 4 hours I waited then they sent me for an CT Scan...not relivant for the reason I went, asked me to sign a consent form moments after they had taken my glasses off by same nurse!
phoned for a ambulence one night, Dh in pain had had friends over so I was tipsy, no way even if sober I would have driven him, he was in agony, 45 minutes later a police car arrives after me phoning and phoning to find out when the ambulence will arrive, he diagnosis correctly as it turns out kidney stone, spends the next 20 minutes til the ambulence arrives warning me not to drive to the hospital as I have been drinking!!!WTF! in the end I was very rude to him (police officer) as if I had intended to drive I would have done it an hour ago, instead of waiting for a fing ambulance! and the reason I had phoned was because I had had a drinK!
For information the fire station was 1/2 mile from our house so 2 mins at the most to get to us, and in case you think I have gone mental, no I haven't we didn't have a ambulence service in our town, the fire fighters did it.

can you tell I think the US health care is terrible? I refused to work out there after a long chat with a doctor friend of 20 + yrs and born USA cit, I also have a nursey friend who trained in the UK and US cit working there and she is depressed at turning away 20 somethings with their cancers which are treatable, and treating 97 year old with cancer because their insurence covers it, dispite the fact it might give them 6 months....

We've just moved to the US (California). Before I came here I knew about US public policy and the whole healthcare debate as I follow politics / current affairs avidly in general. So I was expecting some kind of free market hell when I came here but it's really not that bad so far. DH's insurance policy through his company is really good - hardly any co-pays or deductible but still his American colleagues were actually complaining, saying that their previous jobs had healthcare with no co-pays or deductibles at all. It seems normal among the Americans I've met to own a home, have good healthcare, a 401k and share options.

There are homeless people here but no more than I saw in Vancouver when I was there. There is definitely poverty but nothing worse than what I saw in the UK when I lived there. There is also a lot of wealth - I've never seen people with the kind of money I've seen in this city in the UK, apart maybe from the swankiest parts of London. In that sense, I suppose, it's a bit like South America and it seems to me that the US is becoming more like South America in many ways in terms of the social divide, ghettoization etc.

One thing I don't understand is that most individual Americans you meet are such generous people and will go out of their way to help you with introductions, info or anything if they know you are new. They are very 'neighborly' in many ways - and yet many don't see the benefits of a wider social safety net. It's a strange mix of kindness and callousness.

The clip they showed in that Panorama show of Ron Paul speaking at the Republican debates being asked whether it's OK to let an uninsured man die is even more interesting when you think that Ron Paul is a doctor (obstetrician). I don't know how someone can practice as a doctor and see people die or be refused treatment because of money. It goes against everything you're taught as a medical professional.

The e-petition epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/22670 by the way has surpassed the required 100,000 signatures required to trigger a parliamentary debate.

Keep up the pressure on MPs, please.

Technically, if you are really poor, you should be covered by Medicaid. But being really poor means just that - no savings, no assets etc. And it's administered by the states so the eligibility requirements may be a bit different in different places.

Unemployment benefits just vary loads by state. And usually there is a defined period of time for them. A friend of mine was unemployed for a couple of months in Massachusetts, and his unemployment cheque was half of his salary, so loads better than in the UK.

I think someone was asking about preexisting conditions - the new health care bill that Obama passed now prevents insurance companies from excluding people with preexisting conditions. Obama's bill is also going to require that all companies (over a certain size) offer their employees health insurance, and there is going to be a personal mandate so that every individual who can afford it buys insurance. Republicans are fighting it on the basis that it's not constitutional, but fingers crossed they won't be successful.

I think it's worth mentioning that half of all Americans are in favour of the Obama health care reforms. Many Americans are completely frustrated by the conservative point of view just like people on this thread.

The really stupid thing about the US aversion to so called socialised medicine, and I mean mind bogglingly stupid, is that in the NHS the UK basically has a single payer system. OK, nobody pays in what they take out, but basically each taxpayer pays in a fairish amount and all in all what they take out in the form of services pretty much averages out, and the beauty of it is that individual British companies, small businesses, etc., do not have to pay for their employees' health insurance as American companies have to.

American companies must pay for health insurance for their employees while their competitors in other countries do not have to shoulder this expense. In effect, this expense is shouldered by the individual employees through taxes and by the government taking up the slack through other taxes outside of the US. American companies also pay corporate tax, and individual Americans pay just as much tax if not more (federal and state based on income, county and local/municipal based on assessed valuation of property, plus municipal fees for water, sewage and rubbish disposal, car taxes and other 'fees') than their counterparts in other parts of the developed world. Yet when somebody sensibly calls for reform of the health insurance situation that involves 'socialised medicine' , i.e. more government provision of medical services and in effect single payer insurance that would make American business more competitive and reduce the inroad into profits that paying for insurance for employees involves, the so-called pro business party has a conniption. IMO, the Republicans are just stooges of the insurance industry.

The poor can be marginalised in the US more than anywhere else, and a lot of the middle class can go their whole lives without poor people ever really coming into their radar because Americans of different classes and racial background do not rub shoulders with each other the way Europeans do. The poor tend to be black and urban or if white, very rural. Most of the middle class will never go into the areas where the poor live and will never have any idea what their lives are like. The American ethos tends to emphasise very much the idea that if you really want to you can improve your circumstances, so the fact the the poor exist can be explained by their lack of a will to do better for themselves - and ime it is often explained by reference to some inherent flaw associated with skin colour.

This is changing as more and more middle class youth find themselves completely unable to get onto the bottom rung of the middle class ladder the way their parents did when they graduated from college, and saddled with massive debts after their four years have to move back in with parents.

Yabvu for this to have come as a shock to you.

'We ARE sleepwalking into this.'

Absolutely.

What it means is peonage for British citizens. The NHS and the philosophy behind it are worth fighting for. The alternative is so ugly and so much the opposite of what healthcare is, it is unthinkable.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9081988/NHS-patients-will-pay-under-health-bill.htm

at this coming from the Torygraph.

Even a lot of Tories don't agree with Cameron's RADICAL conservative agenda it seems.

"I think it's worth mentioning that half of all Americans are in favour of the Obama health care reforms. Many Americans are completely frustrated by the conservative point of view just like people on this thread."

This would surprise me. Out of all my friends, family, acquaintances in the states, I only know of ONE that was in favour of it. Sadly.

I think it's also worth noting that for those that are not in NYC or LA, or other massive cities, the bus services and public transportation are literally non-existent. Nothing at all in rural areas. People get trapped in these areas as they have no way to get to jobs unless they buy a car. And I'm not sure what the status is of the current benefits system, but I know when I was leaving the states, they were trying to put time limits on how long you could receive benefits (ie 2 yrs).

I understand why they do Food Stamp programmes, as then people are guaranteed to use it for food, rather than other things. But it's degrading as people tend to look down their noses at them. And when we were briefly on them just after the birth of DD (for about 4 months until we got things sorted), we had quite a lot in food stamps, more than needed, but could barely scratch together the money to pay rent. I've noticed that the laws in the UK allow people on benefits to put together a certain amount of savings (not sure of the amounts) and I think that's brilliant. It allows them to put aside money for if an appliance breaks or car repair or something like that which would devastate a tight budget. That's not allowed in the US benefits system, which means every time anything unexpected happens, it's so stressful and people have to choose - pay rent or fix the car? Feed the kids or get a refrigerator?

" It seems normal among the Americans I've met to own a home, have good healthcare, a 401k and share options. "

Then you travelled in strictly middle class or above social circles. This is simply not the case for most working class.

OpinionatedMum your link is broken.

Last time I looked USA had higher infant morality rates than Mexico - that is beyond disgusting.

But then you are talking about a country that still executes children, in greater numbers than any other country in the world.

Depressing doesn't begin to cover it.

Any society that pays for a kidney transplant but NOT for the essential drugs to make it work is sick to the core.

The Opinionated Mum link to this site nhsalert.org.uk/ is working for me, although quite a few of the links down the right-hand side are not working. You can sign the petition though.

The thought that the NHS is on the way to privatisation and become a capitalist free-for-all akin to the US model fills me with absolute horror. My (albeit limited) contact with the NHS has been very good. The last time I had to use it was when DS2 had a minor accident with superglue as a baby....he was seen by 4 professionals (triage nurse, 1 student doctor, 2 consultants) within a few hours. DH and I said at the time how remarkable this was and FOR FREE.

What Cameron and his cronies seem to have conveniently forgotten is that it is the National Health Service not the National Health Business Enterprise. (Same with education....he is trying to sneak in privatisation via Academies although that is a separate debate). And if I hear the usual response to any criticism these outrageous, downright greedy 'reforms' generate, ie. blaming the economic crisis/all in this together/previous Govt I shall scream.

Why have the lines from that old Joni Mitchell song popped into my head?...'Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got til it's gone'.

E petition....duly signed.