to think that most people are unsympathetic about addiction?

[Ilovedaintynuts]

Within minutes of her death being made public my facebook was full of tributes to Whitney Houston but also people saying they have no sympathy as she only has herself to blame..blah blah.

I find addiction and what it does to individuals, families and society tragic.

My occupation is Oncology and I still find extreme addiction as tragic as dying from cancer.

Whethers it's drugs, alcohol, smoking, spending, gambling it's an illness, isn't it?

Why do people think that these addicts should just stop and that it's their fault they are making themselves ill?

Tragedy*

trickle I'm with you, I think you are right 100%.
Your insight, although accurate is lost on some of these posters that cant see as far as the end of their own nose.

Thanks Trickle that was nicely worded and a good insight. I suppose we are all coming to this discussion from our own angles. I know a plethora of recovering alcoholics, all of them had stable home lives and stable incomes and all were functioning alcoholics. That's the extent of my knowledge of addiction, so it's different to yours.

I suppose I know many other alcoholics whose lives derailed but I don't know the ins and outs of the addictions, and I think honestly many of them sort of burnt themselves out, but seemed to go on to have mental health issues (nervous systems damaged).

Any addiction leaves a mark on people and sadly I think that the scars of addiction can be felt for generations afterwards (depending on the severity of it).

I think what is hard for me to be sympathetic about re:addictions is that I work hard at trying to keep myself alive - I don't smoke, use drugs or drink excessively. I may love wine....I may want more than the amount I feel is safe to drink, and yet I excert control over that.

Addicts are not able to control these urges. They being the operative word here. It is self inflicted, and whilst they are often enabled to continue, by those around them, it is a shame that they don't see that it is them who stand to lose out.

At the end of the day, it IS their own fault. You cannot blame others for the way you live your life.

kitchenroll Thank you, his treatment was appaling, though you are right he wasn't a typical patient with bi-polar.

I guess what i am trying to get at is that is it right that seeing people too much as victims, which is patronising and disempowering to people in these situations and I think is what you are saying is unhelpful. I worry that talking too much about personal responsibility undermines the complex problems individuals can have, the barriers they may have to overcome in order to manage as well as another person. Even if the barrier is the person's own personality, it's still something they have to contend with that is different from somene else and may need more moral support/encouragement or handholding to get the same outcome.

I see it as more a case of someone having to be enabled to take control, rather than that they should just do so - everyone who comes out the other end of an addiction has had to take some responsibility, has to make choices about ending their habit and changing but they need varying ammounts of support to do so.

I feel terrible pity for addicts, especially heroin or crack cocaine addicts. These addictions have absolutely nothing to do with self control or willpower. You only have to smoke heroin or crack, or inject heroin, a few times for your body to become severely addicted. I have seen heroin withdrawal and it is not a pretty sight.

There is a tendency to view these things as black and white. But with MH issues and addiction, they almost never are.

I don't think addicts do have a moment where they think 'I can't cope without this, therefore I am an addict, which is bad, and therefore I should stop doing it', I think they're probably more likely to (in the v early stages of addiction) think, 'this is really painful, but if I just have this helping hand, I will manage today, and then tomorrow's another day' etc. etc. At the early stages of the addiction, their 'substance of choice' for want of a better word is always their best friend, it's a positive thing in their lives (in their eyes), it makes their life better and keeps them on the 'straight and narrow' (yes I know that phrase is completely oxymoronic in this context), or so they think. Then they have it more and more, and then it's the only thing in their lives and is anything but positive.

I had a shortish bout of moderate PND, and even though I had lots of help and support and a loving family and a nice life, I would have given a lot, to not feel like that. What I went through is not even a drop in the ocean compared to the horror that is the life some of these people lead.

I have a friend who is not an addict, but he could very easily be, he just doesn't have an off switch, when he drinks, he just doesn't experience that moment I have, where I think...mmmm getting a bit squiffy now, think I'll have a glass of water and a sleep....he just doesn't get that, he just ends up rat-arsed. He's not deliberately irresponsible, he just doesn't have the moment that I have, where I make a decision. Some people are just wired that way. I think it must be a thousand times harder for people wired that way, to have any sort of self-control or discipline or whatever, over potentially addictive substances. I'm not even saying it is 100% out of their control, I'm saying it's a lot harder for some people to control than others, so I wouldn't really like to judge them, not knowing how hard it is for them. FWIW, I would keep a real close eye on this friend if he was for whatever reason on prescribed addicted drugs as Maryz describes.

Me, I'm a bit like that with butter and mayonnaise, hence being a bit squidgey around the edges, which is still frowned upon, but more socially acceptable than being an alcoholic or drug addict I suppose.

D

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Trickle;

everyone who comes out the other end of an addiction has had to take some responsibility, has to make choices about ending their habit and changing but they need varying amounts of support to do so.

I suppose the first step is accepting they need to change and for that person to want to change themself. No -one or no institution can make them change, they need to have that inclination to change. Once that inclination is there the support should follow.

Very good point Trickle. You are right.

I think perhaps my approach would be the best one for some people and your approach would be the best for as many others.

Especially when it comes to mental illnesses such as bi polar and addictions, because it's such an individual thing. There will not be one solution that works for every sufferer of the same illness.

And of course support doesn't always follow and that is where society let's people and families down.

Crap, I took so long to post that I have x-posted a lot with others. Sorry .

I think the problem I have with what AdventCandle says about her being able to control herself when addicts can't, is that someone who does successfully control them, has no idea whether it is equally as hard for them to do it as it is for an addict 'type' to do so. I don't find it that hard to stop drinking after a reasonable amount, so I can only assume it is harder for other people, otherwise nobody would ever get addicted.

D

Self indulgence, Jesus, REALLY?

Like Deliakis says, some of you are seeing this in a very black and white way. If you don't understand addiction, you are pretty fucking lucky, I guess.

I suppose I indulge myself with depression too? If I just got out of bed, it would all be fine?

Thank You Molly and Viva the truth is I think too hard but I like to try to understand people, and I take what you say as highly complientary. And I agree the fall out onto other people including other generations can be terrible, you can end up with new YP/ adults repeating the same cycle and it's so sad. I can understand how that would make you very angry at the first addict and rightly so.

It's easy to get caught up in what we know and I have to admit I know no high-functioning addicts at all. No one who was having fun with their addiction. Nor anyone from a very stable background who has had a very long addiction, so that completly colours my views - all the people I know who have been addicted have been damaged in one way or another at sometime in their life. And I have to admit that other than physical dependance I can't understand how someone who is happy and well adjusted would end up in addiction.

Deliaskis, not Deliakis, sorry.

kitchenroll and Molly definatly agreed again, one size fit's all doesn't work and if society doesn't knuckle down and get real about that and start supporting people as individuals nothing will ever change.

"There is absolutely no denying people suffer from addictive personalities. I have no idea if it's in the DSM, as I don't have a copy!"

Of course you can deny it, there are many other theories. Maybe its genetic, maybe its a choice, maybe its chemistry, maybe its who the hell knows. You can't just google it and state its a fact!

There is an addictive gene. If you add not having a supportive family to that gene, it's more likely you'll end up suffering addictions. If you add other stuff (poor impulse control for example), it's even more likely. It is a combination of things, and unfortunately, it's very hard to not become addicted if you have the whole gamut of predisposing factors.

Not exactly the same subject, but there was a programme about psychopaths on the other day and they have discovered that there is a psychopath gene and combined with an abusive childhood, you are pretty much going to end up being a psychopath. Without the bad childhood you might not though. The same can probably be applied to every mental illness.

It's all very well to talk about free will, but actually, free will is a debatable concept. Many scientists and philosophers would argue that we have very little/no free will at all.

Its not as simple as that! A gene has been associated with certain addictive behaviours in a certain set of people. Thats all.

There is no one definitive addictive gene, and their is no one addictive personality. Also there isn't "a psychopathic gene". There are associations, there are indications. There are no definites.

Did I say it was as simple as that? I'm SO sorry I had to talk about it in layman's terms, next time I want to add anything scientific to the debate, I'll make sure I peer review it all, shall I?

MH problems can cause addiction, not the other way round.
Good post yellowraincoat, And you are very welcome trickle

Laymans terms and "not at all accurate" are not the same thing.

If you don't trust your audience to know the difference, why bother posting?

Jesus, bit out of line, no?

Trust my audience? I'm posting on a bloody internet forum, I'm not addressing a conference.

There is a gene that causes tendencies towards psychopathy/addiction. I'm sorry that I didn't just say that instead of a psychopath gene. In this context, does it really matter that much? Maybe to a scientist it does but most of us here are not scientists and don't need to know the ins and outs really.

Sorry that we're not as educated as you. Maybe if you want to debate the exact nature of genetics, you should go on a science forum?

No there isn't. Well, there might be, but we don't know that.

My point isn't that you have to talk scientifically (which is quite obvious in that I also spoke in laymans terms, but accurately), its that you have be accurate. And you weren't.

You said, as a matter of fact: There is an addictive gene. Thats just not the truth. I told you that, and you got snarky and defensive. Fuck knows why.

There are genes associated with addiction. I am not getting into semantics, I would say that I was accurate though.

Maybe I got defensive because you were quite rude? Just a thought.

I wasn't at all rude, I pointed out that you over-simplified and were inaccurate You were rude to me about that.

Honestly, is a semblance of accuracy too much to ask for? There are some genes which maybe associated with addiction in some people.

This is a discussion, where people give their opinions, if you wade in stating supposedly scientific fact, don't be surprised if someone disagrees with you. No need to start a bloody row about it!