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Original poster

To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

872 replies

ShagOBite · 10/02/2012 22:15

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

OP posts:
TessTickular · 16/02/2012 23:23

Oh my god are you for real?

You approve of artificially conservatising government? Don't you think it's conservative enough?

bugster · 16/02/2012 23:28

Well I mean conservative not in a right wing sense, but in the sense of not rushing into change thinking only of short term getting elected. To provide a balance on the dangers of too much uncontroled direct democracy.

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/02/2012 23:39

There is a LAW that there must be broadly Christian worship in STATE schools.

BTW I was one of those children who left the assembly when there was praying. Thank goodness I had a Jewish friend who left with me or I left with her. Otherwise it would just have been me, walking out of a room full of people, while I was a child with all the wanting to belong feelings that children have. Fuck knows how my friend felt what with already belonging to a group of people who are marginalised, excluded and hated by some arseholes. How do you think that feels? Try some of that HUMANITY you're bleating on about.

I have been trying to be reasonable on this thread but I have had enough of the idea that making children pray, or making them exclude themselves, is fine in school, where they should be learning. FFS do you understand that other people don't share your religion?

bugster · 16/02/2012 23:44

You are very strident and angry MrsTerryPratchett.

like I said earlier in the thread my Jewish friend stayed in assembly and liked it.

Get a sense of proportion, there are much worse things to get worked up about than 2 minutes of prayers.

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/02/2012 23:46

As I said, I have been on this thread the whole time and this is the first time I have become strident and angry. Could you at least try to understand why? Probably not. Since your Jewish friend liked assembly (or felt that was the right thing to say to belong) that means all Muslim, atheist, Jewish and Hindu children also do.

bugster · 16/02/2012 23:51

She didn't 'feel it was the right thing to say to belong' - do you think it was ever cool to like assembly? She could think for herself and didn't think it was such a big deal. Which it isn't.

MrsTerryPratchett · 16/02/2012 23:52

If it is not a big deal, why can't we drop it and everyone can worship, or not, on their own time?

demisemiquaver · 16/02/2012 23:53

what is so awful about being a 'christian country' ? just forget about it and stop being so intolerant ffs, and btw any half decent faith school will teach all the religions anyway, maybe we should all just worship at the alter of celeb culture tho'.......

bugster · 16/02/2012 23:56

Said it lots of times - cultural heritage - not important to some but means a lot to others. And it's only very minimal and harmless. Goodnight!

BettyBathroom · 17/02/2012 00:03

Bugster can't drop it and allow poeple to worship because her religion won't allow it - some people find subtle ways of fullfilling their religious requirement to spread the word - Bugster has yet to develop that subtle skill. My Mil is an extreme Christian, she takes the Bible very literally, she is also an incredibly tolerant person, who does not support the church's interference with politics, although I clearly don't share her faith she certainly has a better approach to sharing it!

BettyBathroom · 17/02/2012 00:04

Meant to say allow people to worship if they want

solidgoldbrass · 17/02/2012 00:11

Demisemiquaver: What's awful about it is institutionalising special privileges for sexism and homophobia in the name of irrelevant bronze age mythology. Religion should be percieved as the silly little hobby it is (in its benign form) and the threat to wellbeing it can be (in its toxic, power-grabbing form).

MrsTerryPratchett · 17/02/2012 02:32

And the cultural heritage stuff is a little disingenuous. Why should my children have to pray at school because a misogynist, megalomaniac king wanted to divorce some of his wives instead of chopping their heads off?

ImtheDD1 · 17/02/2012 02:53

I'm in two minds about this whole debate, because I am liberal minded and Jewish, but not completely closed minded!
(I would hope, anyway)
On the one hand, there is the part of me that recognises that, for better or worse, Christianity and Christian values are deeply ingrained within British society: many of our (older) laws are based upon Christian moral and ethical codes; The Queen is the head of the Church across the Commonwealth; etc etc. Also, I do quite like that there are 26 Bishops in the House of Lords because I think that they sometimes do stop unethical bits of bills being passed.
(Although I would like there to be more than 1 Rabbi and Immam as well)
On the other hand, this is the 21st Century. Religion is a fun thing to do as long as you remain tolerant of other individuals and remember that "each to their own" is key. Therefore there is no reason why this country should be "Christian".
Unfortunately, the flip side of the latter point is the example of countries such as America and France, which have no official state religion. In France, this has led to discriminatory laws against religious people, eg the ban of the burqua. In the USA, the freedom of religion expressed in the constitution appears to mainly be used by the Republicans to batter home their right, as Christians, to lobby government for anti immigration and homophobic laws.

Make of all of this what you will!

Technodad · 17/02/2012 07:13

Imthedd1

So you think women wearing the Burqua is a woman's self expression of her faith. Or is it not a man forcing their control on a woman!

You may well come back and give me examples of women who want to wear the Burqua, but who planted that desire in their head by generations of controlling - men.

I can't believe there are so many women on this site that support this sexism! Anyway, I have got to dash off and give the wife a beating for not doing the washing up and do an honour killing this morning, so I wont be able to post for a while - no one minds that do they? After all, you are supporting the institutions that support these actions.

P.S I am not really going to do any of these things, since the wife knows never to forget the washing up, and luckily I have no daughters.

TessTickular · 17/02/2012 10:50

What did you do to them Technodad?! (your daughters)

Technodad · 17/02/2012 11:37

I can't tell you. The horrors committed within my religious group - stays in my religious group.

It is a bit like a stag do in that respect (what happens on the stag do - stays on the stag do). Us stags look out for each other!

That's OK though, cos I have an old book telling me it is OK (it is a good book too) and I have some laws that stop you telling me I am wrong!

I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about!

TessTickular · 17/02/2012 11:50

But you are so spiritual and so humane, anything in the name of your God is right.

I applaud you technodad. Keep the faith.

Technodad · 17/02/2012 12:04

Bless you Tess.

KatieScarlett2833 · 17/02/2012 15:39

My God says I can eat 5 Frys chocolate creams at once if I want to.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/02/2012 16:07

Prayers in school and councils are not forming our laws.
What are they doing though?

schools - drip drip indoctrination of children that there is a God.

councils - seriously, what is the purpose of praying before a council meeting?

I grew up in a nonconformist church where most matters were settled in Church meetings - I once commented to my dad, an Elder, that it was much more democratic than CofE/RC. He sagely noted that the meetings began with prayer for guidance- because it was supposed to be a theocracy not really a democracy. Well - that's absolutely fine for a Church meeting but the UK is not a theocracy. Elected representatives should represent the people, not what they believe God might be telling them.

bugster · 17/02/2012 17:26

If it is such a drip drip indoctronation then why is it that there are so few anglicans as you keep pointing out? That those who attended assembly are not all brain washed? Obviously the indoctrination wasn't very effective.

So it looks like you have nothing to worry about.

bugster · 17/02/2012 17:32

What are they doing? Do I have to explain to you what a prayer is? I don't really know anything about council meetings but i presume they are occasions in which problems in a certain area are discussed and decisions made which affect the local population. The prayers are for guidance to do things for the public good. Same as prayers in parliament.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/02/2012 17:35

Its certainly very poor as a means of convincing anyone to be a practising Anglican.

However, it sets the default in many people to think (more or less vaguely) that there is a God, and that they are some sort of Christian, and that religion is a Good Thing. This gets reflected in census figures, which does play into government policies and the perception that - despite the empty pews - we are a 'Christian country'.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/02/2012 17:42

No, you don't need to explain to me what prayer is - I used to be a Christian, thanks.

As I indicated, praying to God for guidance is fine for a theocratic body. I thought councillors and MPs were supposed to represent people. I honestly don't want them thinking they're getting divine rubberstamping of their own ideas guidance. While some may enter into prayer in a spirit of humility and mindsearching, politicians tend to like power and be opinionated, and I seriously doubt that its a good idea for that type of person.