To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

MrsTerryPratchett

You clearly have no values and are the devil incarnate. How dare you be a good person without being asked to do so by god. It is this sort of behaviour which is destroying the very fabric of our society!

You disgust me!

'Tis true.

MrsTerryPratchet - you should be ashamed of yourself, you are showing the rest of us all up. I make it a point of my lack of faith to never volunteer or give money or time to charity. I acquire as much wealth as I possibly can. I try to trip up old ladies crossing the street, I try whenever possible to show no sense of community. It's hard to be so inhumane but I see it as my goal in life - it gives the Christians purpose - I am evil and they are good and life is so simple.

mrsTerryPratchett, the problem is that you and the anti -religion camp are hugely over simplifying the essential questions of life and reducing everything to 'prove it' materialism. It is in that sense that I meant you were not in touch with your humanity. I did not for one second mean that atheists cannot be good and moral people. That's something entirely different. I have no doubt that you are a 'good' person, you don't have to prove it to me. Religion is not merely synonymous with a moral code, and not all (although I grant you probably some) religious people try to behave in an ethical way purely because they are blindly following a prescribed religious code. For me the most important part of religion is faith......'great is the mystery of faith'.

How did this kick off again without me realising?!

I think the ins and outs of the bible are pretty irrelevant to be honest, whether the story is probably true or probably untrue has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the laws of the country are based on Christian values. There is no evidence and never will be that God exists or that the Bible is factual in its entirety. However even if there was, there would still be no grounds for a government to force its citizens to abide by the ethics of a religion.

It is free choice whether or not to partake in acts of goodness or "evil" (obviously referring to evil in the personal sense rather than evil in the has bearing on others in society sense as the government rightly does have a right to legislate on that!!) and also the reasoning behind why we do that. It is entirely up to me if I believe that abortion is fine, partaking in homosexuality honours the God of Ryan or whatever. Therefore the government dictating laws which are based on the values of one particular religion forces everyone to uphold those values themselves, whether or not they ascribe to the religion.

Values are not something for the government to dictate - that is for the individual to decide for themselves. The government exists to provide a framework allowing people the freedom to do so. And the idea that the government can make ethics based decisions for its population, is frankly, a little frightening.

bugster: I am not anti-religion. My lack of belief in something does not make me intolerant or infer any wish for that religion not to exist. What I do believe is that it is for the individual to make decisions rather than have it forced upon them by Christian based laws.

I am in touch with what I consider to be my humanity. Just because you define humanity as being something to do with mystery and simplification I don't really understand why doesn't mean I do. I find the universe complex, amazing, wonderful and awesome, it doesn't mean I have to think there is a divine reason it should be so.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=atheist+inspirational+posters&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1280&bih=709&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=dD-kpspFo7u4ZM:&imgrefurl=atheistpictures.com/page/58/&docid=4yVrOLR_-QXEZM&imgurl=atheistpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/0905.jpg&w=450&h=385&ei=RVQ9T4-BPejYiAK_1rWGAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=302&vpy=268&dur=1319&hovh=208&hovw=243&tx=123&ty=112&sig=114943231377014914740&page=2&tbnh=152&tbnw=163&start=16&ndsp=22&ved=0COEBEK0DMCE" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">This puts it perfectly

alemci:Alot of christians want their children to attend a school which have these values (nb my DC don't go to a christian school) and are not happy with the secular approach of the local school.

Well in that case surely you can pay for the privilege? If I want a school that has an atheist ethos I can't demand one! Neither can parents of children from other religions. Similarly, I can't demand one with a vegetarian ethos, or a pacifist ethos or an ethos that all people of x race are wicked. What value system people uphold is of no concern to the state. School is there to educate. As long as they are teaching about all values/beliefs then they are doing their job and fulfilling that criteria. (Although obviously educating on other issues too!) :o Christians should not have a right to demand a school with a christian ethos, when that is a privilege afforded no one else.

Is is a disgrace that they are allowed to discriminate on the basis of parental religion. They are not allowed to discriminate based on parental sexuality, race or other beliefs - why that specific one?

Mushroom I think the christianity thing is slightly different because of the country's heritage and some of our education facilities were founded by churches. e.g grammar schools, universities.

If you get rid of these schools then I think standards would go down not up and produce mediocracy for everyone.

are there not other religious schools paid for by the state? I don't know hence the question.

Well said MM

Alemci, you need to look at existing secular countries, Italy for example, to see that your point is invalid.

If you get rid of these schools then I think standards would go down not up and produce mediocracy for everyone.

Sorry you're going to have to explain why that would be because I really cannot fathom it.

What has the country's heritage got to do with it ? No, no other religious schools are state funded.

If kids stop spending 5-10% of their school day "colouring in all the things in the picture that god made" they should have more time to spend working on the 3Rs!

Yes some other schools are state funded - catholic schools and a few Jewish and Muslim schools, on the principle of fairness as CoE schools are funded.

Bugster when you speak of humanity do you actually mean spirituality? Because I can say quite confidently I am not a spiritual person have never been so - but by the same token I know people who don't believe in God and yet say they are. Making sweeping generalisations about a massive group of people based on a few encounters isn't good reasoning...you must know that?

No atheist schools though.

Alemci - Oxford and Cambridge allowed non-believers and other religions in long ago. I don't think standards have suffered.

None of that school shite here is Scotland, and the last time I looked the world had not fallen apart.

Organised religion is the pet hate of my life. More conflict, death, hatred, etc has been caused by those institutions than it's proposed benefits could ever outweigh.

Believe what you like but don't insist I hear about it. I am perfectly able to read, learn and decide for myself, as are most people. As for bishops in the Lords...... how is that still possible?

The immaculate conception does not refer to the virgin birth of jesus btw.
The immaculate conception refers to Mary being born without original sin. And therefore being able to carry and give birth to jesus later on.
Mary had an immaculate conception.
Jesus didn't need one - being the son of god and all.

There are 46 schools of other religions in the UK. There are 6,995 of Christian faith. So sorry I generalised, but that is not in anyway fulfilling a principle of fairness. And yes - no atheist schools at all.

mrsTerryPratchett we just see things differently! You think that poster puts it perfectly, it doesn't speak to me at all. What is reality? The gospels speak to me, but no human being can make them have that effect on another - only God's grace can do that.

I don't think that belief can be forced or foisted on anyone. However I think people should be exposed to religion, including seeing people praying rather than just learning about it in a purely theoretical context in RE lessons. In that way, those who seek God can find a way to Him. That's the reason I support preserving the link between the state and the Anglican church - Anglican because of the connection to our history and culture and therefore our identity.

I don't support forcing children to pray out loud, put their hands together etc as some posters have mentioned. They don't even have to do that in my daughter's Sunday school! I think worship should take place in assembly, and that children should either be formally excused, if there is a major objection, or just quietly listen, or take part as they wish. Pretty much the same could have gone for council meetings.

I object to the fact that something which is in danger of looking pretty insignificant, like doing away with prayers at council meetings, is in fact the first step in what could amount to radical, constitutional change in our country.

Sorry posted before I meant to - given the proportion of christian children to children of other religions those statistics are not in anyway fair or representative of the populations demands.

I dearly hope that something which is in danger of looking pretty insignificant, like doing away with prayers at council meetings, is in fact the first step in what could amount to radical, constitutional change in our country.

I do too Tess

Magee - sorry posted quickly - i didn't mean that it is fair, but it is justified on the principle of fairness 'if they get state funded faith schools why not us?' etc... Personally I think the principle on non-discrimination should win out. It is crazy that public services should be rationed by religion.