To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

But aren't the crap-peddling schools funded by the government?

Hi Notfluffy! No, no transcendence today.

Seriously, what kind of tax should the churches pay? Council tax for their properties?

No SGB, the C of E and RC pay towards them - it's normally split between the church and the gov't.

Am loving the idea that the 26 Bishops in the House of Lords have "a personal investment in and knowledge of what real life in the UK is like"

Re em er these are the people who think the gays are going to ruin the family and thatnwomen should be disqualified from high office because their genitals are icky.

They should of course pay the same taxes as everyone else. And even their charity status should be removed until they remove their bishops from the Lords, so should pay tax on all income.

And to add, charity status should also be removed from any organisation that holds discriminatory views, The Salvation Army as an exampole.

Bleuh, spelling.

Slug, oh that it were that simple! The way that those debates have been handled over the last few decades in the C of E is massively more complex than that, really. I could go into details but we'd be here a looooong time...suffice it to say that the reason that the C of E often seems 'woolly' is that it is determined to honour as many of its members as possible - so the bishops are like parents of large, unruly families where you can't sit x next to y at the dinner table because they'll squabble, and you can't mention a to b, etc etc....Yes, there are 'traditionalist' bishops who are anti-women priests, and anti-gay, but tbh there are many more who are just trying to hold it all together.

NF, that would mean re-defining what a charity is. Oxfam would have to go, wouldn't it? (was started in a church in Oxford). The only two properly useful homeless charities I know of would both have to go. What about the National Secular Society? Would that be deemed 'discriminatry' against religious groups? Who'd get to decide what counts as 'discriminatory'? Oh the paperwork....!

HolofernesHead I'd be prepared to believe the Bishops understood what 'real life' is like when they find themselves pregnant. But that will never happen because women are explicitly denied the position of Bishop. Any representatives of an organization that explicitly discriminates against over half the population has no right to sit in the upper house legislating to protect their own privileges.

Slug, have you been following the Synod debates this month?

Are women Bishops yet? Are women Bishops in the House of Lords?

Nope. Thought not

Do Oxfam discriminate against a protected group? If you have evidence of this I'd like to see it. Their origins have no relevance.

You are another one who needs to google for a definition of secularism, I'll repeat what I've now been forced to say over and again, secularism does NOT mean atheism, you get religious secularists.

PLEASE, CAN EVERYONE JUST GOOGLE "SECLULARISM" TO GET A DEFINITION BEFORE MAKING THIS MISTAKE.... AGAIN (Not shouting, just trying to emphasise)

The Human Rights Charter would decide what's discriminatory, after removal of the exemptions for religious sensitivities.

On my last note:

I see that revolting Xian B&B couple have been refused an appeal to seek the right to discriminate. Little steps, but big message

NF, I hear your frustration, but how does the C of E discriminate against any protected group? So, going back to the funding issue, how could the C of E's charitable status rightfully be withdrawn?

Slug - I could explain, but would you listen? And I take it that no, you don't know what the current state of play is on this issue, which has been debated a few weeks ago at Synod (the C of E's legislative body)

NF - too right re. the B & B couple - cuoldn't agree more!

(That was my last note)

"....but how does the C of E discriminate against any protected group?"

I'll address your questions when you address mine

All of them, I have been on this thread for a few hours and have had question after question skilfully evaded.

Holo, are you really suggesting that if the CofE stopped being the official state religion that they would immediately stop doing funerals and running youth clubs? Why?

Not far from where I live there's a big Jewish cemetery. I don't see the Rabbis there insisting that Judaism be considered the state religion before they'll consider burying anyone.

where I live there are youth clubs run by all manner of denominational (eg muslims) and non-denominational (eg, the local skate park) groups and none of them seem to insist on being the state religion before they would consider running such clubs.

Are Christians really so petty that they would stop doing these things if they didn't have the special privilege of belonging to the state religion?

Seriously, how are you going to argue it? If a large public company with political influence openly admitted to having it within their rules to deny the top positions to women, they would be in court quicker than you could say 'Human Rights Act' It's not exactly a new idea. The concept of women as fully human with the capacity to make decision has been around in one form or another for at least a century if not more.

I know the church is still struggling with this basic concept. And I know there a a large number in the church hierarchy who are throwing their toys out of the pram at the idea of being told what to do by women and threatening to either only listen to the male bishops or defect to Catholicism, but really....Why in this day and age is there even a need to discuss women's equality?

The message is loud and clear 'We may make you equal, but only if all the boys agree first'

These people have no right speaking for me in the halls of power as they have made it very clear they are uncomfortable with the idea of women as equals.

"....and on the same kind of theme, if the C of E stopped taking the 70% of funerals they take currently in the UK, who would do them?

....and if Christian churches stopped running the 80% of all youth clubs in the UK, who would make up that shortfall? Would anyone, really?

.....and if the 26 C of E bishops' seats in the House of Lords were re-allocated, is there any equivalent type of person with the same personal investment in, and knowledge of what real life in the UK is like, who cuold take their places? If so, who?"

Shit! I missed this little gem. Aw Holo, you've excelled yourself here. Why would the church stop doing funerals and youth clubs for their faithful? It's not like the church do these things for free anyway.

"...same personal investment in, and knowledge of what real life in the UK is like,..."

How does the CofE discriminate? How about their refusal to allow gay civil partnership ceremonies to take place in their churches?

Although I do note that the CofE is slowly being dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century by just starting to notice that maybe women could, maybe, just about be considered as equal to men. But I'm sure they'll drag the voting out for a few more years before they actually make a decision and it will likely be a few years more before any woman actually makes it to bishop. You wouldn't want to rush into this now would you?

Holo -

Who would do the funerals, run the youth clubs, sit in the second chamber etc....?

I hope the answer is "the best people/institutions for the job" not "the institutions that by historic accident currently do the job and are holding on like grim death to it as a source of power and influence."

Who is best to run funerals = whoever the dead person and their loved ones choose.

Who is best to run youth clubs = who can attract kids, support them as they grow up and do it cost effectively.

Who should sit in the house of lords = people with integrity, public spirit and expertise.

I some cases this might mean bishops/churches, but not necessarily.

Actually I think your statistic on 80% of youth clubs if true is shocking. It's not a good statistic if children are excluded from 4 out of 5 youth clubs if they are not willing to pay lip service to religious authority.

here

Excellent article Kal

'YABU this country and the Western world as a whole is built upon on a Christian heritage and this affects most things we do in life whether people appreciate and choose to acknowledge this or not. For the country to have no Christian influence is impossible given how our society has evolved.'

Acksherlly, being a historical pedant n all. The western world took from and built upon the Islamic Empire and scientific acheivements. Thats where the renaissance came from. Even our Juries of 12 fellow citizens was from Persia. The world is interwoven.