To think it is about time to stop being a Christian country.

[ShagOBite]

On the council prayers debate, lots of people have said "but we're a Christian country". Why are we? Should we be? How do we go about changing this? It seems so inappropriate and unnecessary in this day and age.

One thing I should point out though - Anglicanism is less than 500 years old. England was more or less Roman Catholic for a lot, lot longer than it's been CofE.

Therefore if it is important for us to have a state religion to make sense of English history, music, architecture etc it would be better for that state religion to be Roman Catholicism rather than Anglican.

(Of course England was resolutely Pagan for much longer than it was RC but I hesitate to muddy the waters still further)

Ah, the good old Bellocian argument in favour of antidisestablishmentarianism:
'And always keep a-hold of Nurse
For fear of finding something worse.'

I have some sympathy with this, but with the proviso that the CofE should become more like the Queen - a symbolic figurehead. No real power, less influence. No automatic places in the Lords (any member of any faith, or none, should be equally eligible under whatever criteria are established when the Lords eventually gets reformed properly. One would expect a good representation of CofE members in proportion to their numbers in the population).

Well, yes - I spent the first 18 years of my life a catholic, so have never had any sense of a link with CofE England. Did resent all the pretty churches having been snatched away...

I think the US religious situation is very complex - a country founded on religious principles in quite a different way, and weren't many early settlers particularly puritanical? I can't see that it's really down to separation of church and state - I'd imagine it could be even worse if it wasn't!

"I'd imagine it could be even worse if it wasn't!"

I think you're absolutely right, they'd be no further forward than the middle east if they hadn't a separation of church and state.

Snorbs - I see what you're saying but am unconvinced. While lots of English church architecture predates the Reformation, most of the great frescoes and even stained glass from that period was smashed or painted over in the Reformation, so there simply isn't as much left from the previous Catholic culture. In terms of poetry, there's Beowulf, Chaucer, some courtly stuff and the odd mystic but really not that much. In contrast, the period around and following the Reformation was phenomenally creative in England; a far greater and more important proportion of English art and culture dates from the early modern period and is directly or indirectly bound up in the cultural turmoil that surrounded the Reformation and ensuing civil war. Most of the greats of English art and literature were influenced by and developed out of that time. Anglicanism is inseparable from English civilisation.

notfluffy - the US is interesting, in that its separation of church and state dates squarely from persecution of the Puritans around the time of the Reformation. Having escaped persecution in Europe, they were determined to create a new society where religion would not be a source of persecution and prejudice. Paradoxically though contemporary American culture is riddled with prejudice that's grounded in religion. My personal feeling is that societies tend to end up creating the demons they're most afraid of in the end.

I absolutely agree with you there, it'd be much much worse if they didn't have the separation though.

Way to diss the middle ages! That's rubbish, if I may say so.

Thing is, a great deal of culture, tradition, literature etc is influenced by ROman and Greek and Norse and Pagan mythology as much as by Christian mythology. All the myth systems have some good stories and pictures, all of them have a certain amount of unpleasantness attached as well. And they are all, of course, myths.
It's always amusing when the 'Waa, waa, Christians are tho dithrethpected!' types emerge. They demonstrate so beautifully that religion is not all that compatible with intelligence.

Sorry - that was rude, but really shows how little people understand of the culture of the middle ages.

Bottom line is, no one's asking that years of christian history is wiped out, churches burned, artworks and books destroyed, not even Dawkins or I want that. Christianity's had it's day though and has little or no relevance today.

And still more rich seams of British culture arose during and after the Enlightenment. Anglicanism is just one layer in the palimpsest of our culture. An important part, to be sure, but that doesn't mean that it therefore has some overriding status in modern political life.

Can I ask what benefits OTheHugeManatee sees with the connection of church and state? What does she think they have to offer? Apart from the historical which really is an irrelevant 'nicety'.

Just to nail the myth of the immenent destruction of Christian culture by the massed armies of the Militant Atheists....

"Anglicanism is inseparable from English civilisation."

Arguably the greatest advances in English civilisation happened during the Roman occupation. Before they came over we were mostly living in small huts and with a social structure which can only be described as tribal. By the time they left, England was a (more or less) cohesive state with roads, cities, arts, technology and a common written language. Plus a common religion, of course.

For all the Reformation achieved it can't hold a candle to the Romans.

"What have the Romans ever done for us, eh?"

Joking apart, after the collapse of the Roman empire England (with the exception of the monasteries and court) more or less went back to a tribal society living in longhouses (I think it was longhouses more than small huts) for really quite a long time...

Just to bring you back to reality, this is 2012.

The middle east has a long religious tradition enshrined into it's history, doesn't mean it couldn't do with a massive change.

If the snitty comments are starting, I'm outta here

'I'm not objecting to watching others pray - but dd isn't being told that being christian is one of many options, but that that's what people are, and anythjing else is a bit different. Why is this the law?'

sums it up for me. Religion has no place in schools except as a topic to study

What does snitty mean? I don't think anyone's been unreasonable have they?

Don't think there was an "England" as such for quite a long time after the Romans left - various kingdoms, weren't there?

Did your average peasant really live so differently under Roman occupation? I really do feel like leaping to the defence of the early middle ages, partly as it pays our bills...

OK, fair enough, let's say the early middle ages were the crucible for England's growth in civilisation. The predominant religion of the time? Roman Catholic (with emphasis on the Roman ).

All the real civilisation-building heavy lifting had been done long before Henry VIII told the Pope to get lost. Sure, the Anglicans might have got round to nailing up a few stained glass windows in some Roman Catholic cathedrals to replace the ones they destroyed but it was the Pope's money organisation that got those cathedrals built in the first place.

As for music, I don't know much that comes close to the beauty of Tallis' Spem in Alium and the rest of his stuff ain't half bad either. And Tallis was a confirmed Roman Catholic.

You know, I've learned a lot from this discussion. I am now considering changing my mind. Maybe there should be close links between church and state, but not this wishy-washy, Johnny-come-lately anglican church. If we're going to do it we should do it right. If we're going to be a Christian nation then let's be a proper Christian nation. Let's choose the church that has been around near-enough since the time of Christ, the church that has really driven England's civilisation, learning and art for near enough two thousand years rather than just a few hundred - the Roman Catholic church.

Because, after all, if you believe that a state religion is vital for England's heritage then I'm sure you'd agree that you'd need to choose the religion that's been around the longest and has had the biggest impact on our society.

Ooh - I love Spem in Alium. But I ain't going back to Catholicism.

Actually - the Queen isn't the Head of the Church where I live. Don't know who is, actually...